How to destroy a piece of 348-409 Mickey Thompson Power Ram history one part at a time because you can.

[1964SuperStocker]

There aren't many parts that I see in the 348-409 world that get modified and gets me going but this takes the cake.
Everyone knows there are only so many M/T Power rams made. So everyone thinks they want one but few people know or understand them. There is a world of information on how they work and what problems you will have should you decide you want to run any kind of true cross ram set up. Read this facebook post yourself. https://www.facebook.com/groups/693902137432254/permalink/1851224328366690
The point here is: He is experimenting on a piece that he has no understanding of how it works to begin with, whether what he is attempting to do will work and clearly hasn't found anyone else with any knowledge of how to determine if what he is attempting to accomplish will work.
FOR ANYONE THAT WANTS TO EXPERIMENT WITH ANY CROSS RAM INTAKE MODIFICATION!: If you don't have ready access to a flow bench that can measure the flow rate of both individual sides of a true CROSS Ram at the same time, then you cannot actually make a specific determination as to whether anything you have done or would like to do will make any difference. I don't care what kind of cross ram set up you are talking about the physical principles/theories of tuning anything is to have a base line then do some testing. Clearly the testing of individual sides of a cross ram set up is very difficult if not impossible. I don't know of anyone that has a flow bench that can handle individual runners at the same time but there might be one out there.
This boils down to the same problem with the LS guys that buy fake 409 valve covers for their LS engines. You want the look so you will do anything but accept the fact that an LS will never be a 348-409. To anyone that wants to have the look of a cross ram but doesn't accept the issues that come along with owning one, and aren't actually willing to learn how to tune them.... Leave them alone and make some fake plastic cover like the LS guys do so you can "have that look."
My money is his 6500rpm street engine will run worse because of the specific area he is pulling from. He has no idea whether there is a low/high pressure signal in the location he is attempting to use or what RPM he will make any gains or losses. This entire project is just playing because he can.

 

[1964SuperStocker]

As a quick follow up: It is kind of our duty with this being the largest hub/pool of 348-409 knowledge/experience to help anyone who wants to learn. That also means discouraging people to not bother when they are clearly trying to reinvent the wheel which is over their paygrade/head. Clearly the work isn't being done by CNC to duplicate the holes cut on each side equally. This dual 4 cylinder engine is going to run better/worse on one side then the other at different RPMS.

 

[wristpin]

As a quick follow up: It is kind of our duty with this being the largest hub/pool of 348-409 knowledge/experience to help anyone who wants to learn. That also means discouraging people to not bother when they are clearly trying to reinvent the wheel which is over their paygrade/head. Clearly the work isn't being done by CNC to duplicate the holes cut on each side equally. This dual 4 cylinder engine is going to run better/worse on one side then the other at different RPMS.

Dual four or Octepulate 1's

 

[BRYAN FUGATE]

He added some new pics

 

[Iowa 409 Guy]

Against all odds

 

[63impalass409]

Wtf

 

[boxerdog]

I've kinda got mixed emotions on this. I probably would never do that because I generally like to preserve stuff, especially if it works OK as-is. But sometimes, I can't help myself and I feel like tinkering with something just because I think it needs improvement. Now, I don't know whose intake that is, but it does belong to them, for better or worse. So let them have at it. Maybe it's just a learning experience. Maybe it's a mistake. On the other hand, I doubt that Mickey T was very skilled at manifold design, either, nothing designed in that era looks too good today. Maybe it will make an improvement?

As far as the need for a CNC machine to make it all uniform, I'm not so sure about that, either. Many great hot rod parts were built, both by companies and by individuals, using common sense and the equipment they had on hand, long before anyone could spell CNC. And I would be willing to bet that there are some really good head porters out there (I know a couple from my own experience) that hand-finish everything. After all, our sport doesn't survive in fully-equipped machine shops, more likely in whatever garages and spaces we have available.


So here are a couple of pics of an intake I just pulled off my Nova. It's not really either a single plane, nor is it a dual-plane like most 180* dual-planes, maybe it's kind of a cross-ram. Did it work? Ran fine when things got warmed up. I won't modify it because somebody might want it as-is, and the designer forgot more about manifolds than I will ever know. Maybe it doesn't measure up to today's performance levels? I have no idea, mine never saw a dyno or a track. It did get a lot of comments. Sometimes it's hard to say what might work and what might not. A lot of times, someone else can show you a better or cleaner way to accomplish whatever it is you are trying to do.

My point is that most of the people on this site can do some amazing things based on common sense, practical experience and basic tools. That is the basis of our "sport" much as it was back in the 50s and 60s. I also know for every successful "hack", as they are called today, there are probably 5 or 6 failures we don't know about!

 

[1964SuperStocker]

I've kinda got mixed emotions on this. I probably would never do that because I generally like to preserve stuff, especially if it works OK as-is. But sometimes, I can't help myself and I feel like tinkering with something just because I think it needs improvement. Now, I don't know whose intake that is, but it does belong to them, for better or worse. So let them have at it. Maybe it's just a learning experience. Maybe it's a mistake. On the other hand, I doubt that Mickey T was very skilled at manifold design, either, nothing designed in that era looks too good today. Maybe it will make an improvement?

As far as the need for a CNC machine to make it all uniform, I'm not so sure about that, either. Many great hot rod parts were built, both by companies and by individuals, using common sense and the equipment they had on hand, long before anyone could spell CNC. And I would be willing to bet that there are some really good head porters out there (I know a couple from my own experience) that hand-finish everything. After all, our sport doesn't survive in fully-equipped machine shops, more likely in whatever garages and spaces we have available.
View attachment 90031 View attachment 90032

So here are a couple of pics of an intake I just pulled off my Nova. It's not really either a single plane, nor is it a dual-plane like most 180* dual-planes, maybe it's kind of a cross-ram. Did it work? Ran fine when things got warmed up. I won't modify it because somebody might want it as-is, and the designer forgot more about manifolds than I will ever know. Maybe it doesn't measure up to today's performance levels? I have no idea, mine never saw a dyno or a track. It did get a lot of comments. Sometimes it's hard to say what might work and what might not. A lot of times, someone else can show you a better or cleaner way to accomplish whatever it is you are trying to do.

My point is that most of the people on this site can do some amazing things based on common sense, practical experience and basic tools. That is the basis of our "sport" much as it was back in the 50s and 60s. I also know for every successful "hack", as they are called today, there are probably 5 or 6 failures we don't know about!

In this case the guy has access to a machine shop and has fabricated some things by hand before. His argument though is that he has issues with an intake (he has never run) that is known to have considerable better performance then the 881 factory dual quad by just bolting it on. Trying to tame a cross ram ("for the street") in his 6500rpm engine is funny, it was never made/designed for the street. So instead of buying parts that are everywhere (made new today) that have the best "street" manners he chops up a 1 of 50 piece to get his street manners. LOL! There are new intakes that perform better on the street than a M/T with none of the issues and problems associated. Yes my 3cylinder 1.0 liter Chevy Sprint could have a 6/71 blower attached to it but why? No matter what I do to the 6/71 I'm not going to get better gas mileage out of my 3 cylinder 1.0 liter. This build is for nothing but a vanity street build. He went from being "Cool you have a M/T!" to "Ah you did what to a M/T, because you want to go to the store?" I'm more dissapointed that the Bears won't make the Super Bowl but its clearly disappointing to see people using rare vintage race equipment for these 348-409 engines to look good on the street.
Yes, he owns it but clearly doesn't undestand what he has. I know of lots of people like that.

 

[Ishiftem]

If he can have the look he wants and performance too, then why not? The separate plenums like that are a crap design which is why no one has used it in 45 years. I would bet what he is doing will help it. As for the rare piece factor, in fifty years I don't think anyone will care. Most young people don't even care about getting a drivers license let alone a 1 of 50 intake made for an engine they have never heard of. Go to the drag strip or a car show and most people are over the age of fifty. The truth is that this is a slowly dying hobby. Some cars will always command big dollars and be desired but more as art rather than something that gets driven. I say if it feels good, do it!

 

[1964SuperStocker]

If he can have the look he wants and performance too, then why not? The separate plenums like that are a crap design which is why no one has used it in 45 years. I would bet what he is doing will help it. As for the rare piece factor, in fifty years I don't think anyone will care. Most young people don't even care about getting a drivers license let alone a 1 of 50 intake made for an engine they have never heard of. Go to the drag strip or a car show and most people are over the age of fifty. The truth is that this is a slowly dying hobby. Some cars will always command big dollars and be desired but more as art rather than something that gets driven. I say if it feels good, do it!

Probably right. I often wonder if I should be teaching my boys more about quad drone racing because not many people will be looking to smell race fuel in 20 years.

 

[Skip FIx]

That single 4 cross ram intake was advertised in Circle Track magazine for a long time . I think even Jim McFarland(long time tech writer in Circle Track) had some design input into it. He also did some design for Edelbrock.

Most of the later factory Chevy and Pontiac Cross ram intakes used in Trans Am Racing and the Smokey ram and "Street tunnel Ram" by Edlebrock all had one large plenum vs two plenums. Many tuneres used a clear plastic top for porting the port entrances and trying to avoid fuel puddling in sections. Many of the old Pontiac racer found on the M/T cross ram a balance tube helped buffer some of the pulses between cylinders. This one is mine , some of the old original ones were much cruder often using hose between them.

 

[MRHP]

I think the mopar long ram had a balance tube on them as well.

 

[Iowa 409 Guy]

Can't imagine how much stuff has been destroyed trying to make a car go faster. Probably even a few Z-11 intakes....

 

[boxerdog]

Somewhere along the line, somebody figured out that the plenum area needed to be shared between banks. The volume of this shared area is probably important, I'd guess more than a piece of hose would be best.

And Jim McFarland, the intake designer, is also credited with the first Tarantula single-plane design (at Edelbrock) and is a SEMA HOF engineer. Here is some more info on him, pretty interesting:
https://hotrodenginetech.com/a-conversation-with-jim-mcfarland/

 

[427John]

I think the mopar long ram had a balance tube on them as well.

I was just going to say the super long Mopar cross ram used one but you beat me to it,it looks more like a radiator hose though.So they knew that in at least 1959.

 

[1958 delivery]

His to destroy. Bright side, one less available so the price continues to go up for the unmolested survivors

 

[1964SuperStocker]

His to destroy. Bright side, one less available so the price continues to go up for the unmolested survivors

Don't go telling that to the Z11 head guy on ebay. lol!

 

[La Hot Rods]

I thought the Z11 guys already knew that.

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Thanks for exposing me to that FB site Al Loy started, wasn't aware of that discussion group.

Just what I needed, another outlet for my dubious posts .

A big shout out to RussC for donating a 62 hood we can cut up to fit atop the crossram on the Biscayne post car .


Cheers! TomK

 

[Barry Taylor]

I can’t help but thinking there had to have been more than 50 of these made. Ive owned two in my days here on earth. I don’t think they would have even gotten there r&d and tooling money back with those numbers.