ARP Main Bolt Torque ~ Line Hone and timing chain fit

[hrlykngt]

Have a block that had ARP Main Bolts added to it before I got, looks to have been line honed also. What would be the correct Torque for the mains with these bolts? 100 ft lbs? I have no idea what it was torqued to, machine work was done by Lamar Walden in 2009. Fellow I bought the motor from passed away and motor has sat till I bought a couple of weeks ago, I talked to Rob Walden, he said he only had his dad’s records back to around 2012.
Also how would you check if timing chain was still correct after line honing? I assume it would be real loose , but how much is acceptable? As I said, I dont believe block was cut much maybe just cleaned up after studs were added, not sure how I could even check.
Thanks Harley

 

[La Hot Rods]

Are they bolt's or stud's?
The bolt's I used are to be torqued to 100 ft lbs.

 

[Murphdog]

ARP main studs are #110 with ARP moly lube. If this is a race motor I would only use studs, no bolts. As far as the timing chain, 1st, it has to be a true roller set. Once installed see how much slack/movement you can get. I'm sure I will get some grief over this, but if it is 3/16" or less run it. If in the 1/4" plus range, you might consider a reduced center distance set. They are available in -.005 & -.010 centerlines. I have both in stock. Cam to crank center distance stock, is 5.045.
Jeff

 

[Ishiftem]

As said, 110 with arp lube. BUT did the machine shop use 110 with arp lube. That is the question you need to ask. If they used oil and a different spec, your main bore will not be round if you use 110 with arp lube. Look at the pan rail as it might be stamped with what the did. As for the chain, put your cam in and timing set. Push on the chain on one side and see how much it deflects with a ruler or something laying across the cam gear and crank gear to measure from. Anything from 1/8 to 3/8 and I would leave it.

 

[Murphdog]

As said, 110 with arp lube. BUT did the machine shop use 110 with arp lube. That is the question you need to ask. If they used oil and a different spec, your main bore will not be round if you use 110 with arp lube. Look at the pan rail as it might be stamped with what the did. As for the chain, put your cam in and timing set. Push on the chain on one side and see how much it deflects with a ruler or something laying across the cam gear and crank gear to measure from. Anything from 1/8 to 3/8 and I would leave it.

As a side note to what Dan said about torque & lube. Some may not think it makes any difference what lube you use but I have experienced it first hand. I have a custom ARP 2000 3/8 x 1" long rod bolt I use. I was torquing them 600 inch lbs with "motor oil". I became aware of some issues that looked like the bolts were not clamping sufficiently. ARP recommended 3-3.5 thousandths stretch. After some testing It was apparent the I needed 850-900 inch lbs torque to get 3-3.5 thousandths stretch. I changed the "lube" and 600 inch lbs put me right in the middle of 3-3.5 thousandths stretch. SO YES LUBE IS VERY IMPORTANT!
Jeff

 

[hrlykngt]

Has Bolts not studs for mains. Will be running head studs and roller timing chain with Torrington bearing I bought from you Jeff. Will not be a race motor. Just hot street motor. 10.5-1, 4” stroker kit hydraulic roller comp cam 48-802-11, 555 /560 lift

 

[Ishiftem]

Missed the bolt part. 100 with the arp lube. But if you can't determine how they were torqued, and with the rust, I would have it line honed again. That's my recommendation.

 

[Ishiftem]

As a side note to what Dan said about torque & lube. Some may not think it makes any difference what lube you use but I have experienced it first hand. I have a custom ARP 2000 3/8 x 1" long rod bolt I use. I was torquing them 600 inch lbs with "motor oil". I became aware of some issues that looked like the bolts were not clamping sufficiently. ARP recommended 3-3.5 thousandths stretch. After some testing It was apparent the I needed 850-900 inch lbs torque to get 3-3.5 thousandths stretch. I changed the "lube" and 600 inch lbs put me right in the middle of 3-3.5 thousandths stretch. SO YES LUBE IS VERY IMPORTANT!
Jeff

It sure does change things. I'm amazed at how slight changes in clamping load changes housing bores. I know on my rods that call for .005 to .006 bolt stretch if they are closer to that .005 the big end will be out of round. Get them to .006 and they are round. Thread condition too. When new they called for 92 foot pounds with CMD extreme but took 98 to get the stretch to .006. Now that they have been disassembled and assembled multiple times, even with new bolts, they only need 82 because the threads are burnished. Place I've been doing some work at they found on LS blocks with ARP studs the caps need to be torqued and then break each stud loose individually and retorque like a head gasket. If not and you line hone it, when you take the caps off and torque them back down the bores change. Had a Lamborghini block that need to be line honed. That piece of crap, every time you torque the mains the bore changed. Even if you just broke the bolts loose individually and torqued again it changed! And the bolts didn't require much at all. I think the inner bolts were 55 newton meters and the outers 33 newton meters. What an over engineered pile of crap that was.

 

[Murphdog]

Missed the bolt part. 100 with the arp lube. But if you can't determine how they were torqued, and with the rust, I would have it line honed again. That's my recommendation.

The "rust" has to go. It will affect bearing crush/main housing bore, and therefor size & heat transfer. Not sure if some used wet & dry and WD40 will clean it up or not, but you need to do something there.
Jeff

 

[hrlykngt]

Shouldnt I be able to clean and then torque the main to 100 and check for out of round "egging" with my bore gauge? If it is out I can go to the 110 and check that, theoretically it should be perfectly round at one of these.
It will definitely be rust free before I start putting together or measuring, it looks worse than it is. I actually plan on running some scotchbrite thru it on a small hone, if that doesnt clean it up, I will get redone.
I plan on submerging the whole block in Evapo Rust to clean it then flush with soapy water . I think that will remove all of the rust I have. If I dont feel 100% confident I will revat block. Would like to save the Freeze Plugs and Cam bearings if I could tho. Its more of not having a machine shop close by to do all of this. Closest reputable one I know of is about 2 hours away.

The pictures below are from a 400 small block in a 55 Chevy drag car that my Brother just bought, it sat for several years after it was built with the plugs out. You can see how good the cylinder cleaned up with the scotchbrite on a hone and with WD40, was no pitting all surface rust. *** Note, Block was completely disassembled and crank pulled before I attempted to clean the cylinder, there was no contamination of anything***.

 

[Murphdog]

It will be imperative that you get this clean after any rust removal procedure. The oil hole that feeds the mains also feeds the cam. Removal of all gallery plugs to facilitate cleaning will be a must. Easy with that Scotch Brite!
Jeff

 

[MRHP]

I would strip the block, have it tanked, and start again with a line hone. Cheap to do it now, expensive to do it later.

 

[Ishiftem]

You have a dial bore gauge so that's good! If the main bores have any pitting, even minor, I would line hone it anyway. You want 100% percent contact between the shell and block to ensure good heat transfer.

 

[hrlykngt]

What is the factory diameter of the mains without the bearing shells?
I have decided to just strip the block back down, pull galley plugs, freeze plugs and cam bearings and start over, and not take any chances. I have put the feeler out for a machine shops my racer friends use, will go from their.
One other question, I had thought about going ahead and installing Main Studs torqued to 110lbs as indicated above while I had it honed, and running a windage tray. What are the correct 409 Main Studs for a Windage Tray?
Will the factory windage tray clear the 4" stroker crank?
Will the factory tray work with a 409 truck pan, I have a perfect truck pan, would have to find a car pan if not.
Thanks,
Harley

 

[Murphdog]

What is the factory diameter of the mains without the bearing shells? 2.687/2.688
I have decided to just strip the block back down, pull galley plugs, freeze plugs and cam bearings and start over, and not take any chances. I have put the feeler out for a machine shops my racer friends use, will go from their.
One other question, I had thought about going ahead and installing Main Studs torqued to 110lbs as indicated above while I had it honed, and running a windage tray. What are the correct 409 Main Studs for a Windage Tray? There is not a main STUD kit for a windage tray that I know of. ARP does not list a main stud kit for the W family either. Use ARP 145-5404, I have these in stock @ $76. I also have some add on studs with a standoff to use with a windage tray but have not confirmed how they will work with the factory style windage tray.
Will the factory windage tray clear the 4" stroker crank? I will try to mock this up and verify.
Will the factory tray work with a 409 truck pan, ????? I have a perfect truck pan, would have to find a car pan if not.
Thanks,
Harley

Jeff

 

[MRHP]

I believe the 392 hemi main studs work with a windage tray. I have a 4 inch arm in my 09 and a main girdle with stock windage tray with a car pan. Truck pan should fit.

 

[Murphdog]

I mocked this up with a cheap import rod and it just rubbed the windage tray with a 4.25 crank. This was done on #7 rod. Using the special studs with standoffs I was able to adjust the tray 1/8 farther away from the crank than the stock main bolts with standoffs set up at. I think if I had been using a Molnar rod this would have just cleared. There are noticeable differences in rods as to how much the rod bolts stick out in the way, I layed the cheap import over a Molnar and the bolts on the Molnar were slightly less obtrusive. With a 4" crank this should be easy peasy, unless you have an ugly rod that the bolt heads stick out a mile. I set a car pan on this, no issues, don't think a truck pan will be any different. See attached.
Main stud kit with 4 special standoff studs also in stock @ $100
Jeff

 

[hrlykngt]

Thanks Jeff! After I spoke with you a couple weeks ago, I stumbled across a post and I ended up getting a complete kit from Jack Gibbs, he had 1 complete kit left and posted it, it was .060 over that I needed with Ross pistons and all in stock and ready to go, Eagle 4" stroke crank and is balancing it for me, it has the 6.135 Scat I beam Rods. He said these were "Stroker" rods and would not need any clearance work done to block. Out of prudence, I will check everything as I go. Attached pic of assembly I got from Jack.

P.S., Thats a beautiful setup!