097 Duntov cam

Greg Reimer

Well Known Member
I was cleaning out the store room, and I came up with a vintage Delco dual point small block distributor with no vacuum advance, it has the clip on cap like a Ford had back then, its Delco number is 1110891, the date code is 4G20. It's from a 1955 Corvette with a 265. I know that there's more advanced ignition system than a dual point OEM piece, but this is a real serviceable good unit. I don't need it, somebody doing a restoration should get it. I'd like $100 plus 20 to ship it. Also, the 327 intake with the AFB is a real good choice.
 

FS560

Well Known Member
Except for the hydraulic lifters, what are the relative characteristics between the 097 cam and the 151 cam?
 

63impaloligist

Well Known Member
Except for the hydraulic lifters, what are the relative characteristics between the 097 cam and the 151 cam?


Lift. The 151 cam had .447 lift and the 097 had .393 intake and .399 exhaust.
Chevy advertised duration was 342 on the 151 and 287 on the 097.
 

63impaloligist

Well Known Member
Except for the hydraulic lifters, what are the relative characteristics between the 097 cam and the 151 cam?


Also, the 151 in my 27, ran out of steam at 5200 rpm. On the dyno, it lost 100 plus hp, between 5200 and 5800, where you would basically feel it stop pulling. Others can verify but I believe that the 097 makes power to 5800 or 6000 maybe higher. I know that the 30 30 revs higher than the 097.
 

MRHP

 
Supporting Member 1
What about the later -182 that was a 330-350 horse cam? were they any good? I think around 1970-71 LT 1?
 

Greg Reimer

Well Known Member
Way back when, in the mid/late 1980's, there were no local drag strips in the So Cal area that were accessible, or in a venue that was available for a weekly program,so I got interested in NHRA Stock Eliminator. We could at least run the Winternationals at Pomona, and the Finals in the fall if we did well.I bought a typical '70s vintage stocker to start with, a 66 Bel Air 2 door sedan, 283, Powerglide trans, 5.57 geared 12 bolt, and all. It fit P/SA, a 16 pound per horsepower class, at 220 horsepower. 3690 pounds minimum weight with driver. Not a lightweight. The class index was around a 13.64, I never went quicker with this car than a 13.68. It had the #520 283-327 heads, a very restrictive #457 intake, a Rochester 4 jet, flat top pistons, an.040" over 283, and an NHRA legal camshaft that featured .398" lift on both valves. It sounded outrageously radical and the car left pretty well, with 1.78 60 foot times on bias ply slicks, the radials weren't out then, and a whole lot of the current amenities that make stockers fly now weren't being done then. The cam in the car when I got it had a maximum duration rule, restricting max duration to the OEM duration, even valve spring pressure had to be OEM. NHRA blueprint specs at that time carried all these specs so a racer or an engine builder could comply. That cam sounded nice, but the engine was very fussy about the shift point. You needed to turn the engine all you could, but you had to get it into the next gear in time to avoid valve float. that called for a 6800 RPM gear change. Any putter out the intake or exhaust slowed the car down a bunch. 327's from 62-66 used the same cam. They didn't need to be rpm'ed as much,so they actually made better use of the cam. The rules changed in '88, any valve timing as long as the lift remained OEM, and any valve spring tension. That is why those cars today have 200 pounds on the seat and 400 over the nose, That 283 today would be turned about 8000 RPM in the lights. With the later 327 '68 Chevelles, that incarnation of 327 has a .390 intake lift and a .410 exhaust lift. The #462 head has 10.5 to one C/R, the 250 horse has 1.72" intakes, and 8.75 to 1 CR. Same short block and camshaft. It's possible run H,I, orJ/stock with the 275 horse engine, or J,K,or L with the 250 horse combo, and the only difference is the cylinder heads. Kind of a neat set up, but the 250 horse won't turn the RPM the higher horse motor does.
This story in a nutshell proves that valve lift isn't necessarily the only thing in creating a maximum power effort. I've gone as quick in my Chevelle as 12.20's with the 327/250 horse engine, but the 275 horse engine has gone 11.78 at about 5 miles per hour faster with no other changes. When laying out an engine combination, the first thing you need to do is determine exactly what level of horsepower you are after, then determine how you are going to get it without outrageously excessively extreme parts to do it with.
 
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Blk61409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
I ran a .060 over 327 with the Z-28 crossram. I used the Z-28 cam, 5:38 gear, 68 Nova. One thing I learned was the cam liked a retard timing position. Don’t remember exactly but about 2-4 degrees retard and that thing exploded in 4th gear.

Ran 11.68 and won the 69 AHRA class and got beat for last race in Top Stock Eliminator by breaking out, 11.90 breakout. In my mind my car was quicker, just did not play well within the rules:D
 

Greg Reimer

Well Known Member
Sounds like that 68 Nova was a land based missile. A small block 327 seems to like the cam in at 106-108 degrees. The 283 liked it at 110-112. Seems like about 36-38 degrees total ignition timing gets it done as well in the Chevelle. The challenge in any class like Stock Eliminator is the task of determining the procedure for obtaining optimal results within the rules. The design parameters of the engine itself is the prime limiting factor, with valve maximum lift being the absolute limiting factor. Since maximum lift is set rather low for these engines by the rules, it becomes necessary to obtain maximum flow with duration, sometimes up to the limits of the engine design. That's why a stocker cam resembles a street roller.
One of the interesting things about any Chevrolet with stamped steel ball jointed rocker arms, which sums up about all of them, is the often vast variation of tolerances with assembly line parts. If you set up an engine to have, lets say, .397 lift on the intake and .407 on the exhaust, you would need to have a solid test lifter that's the same installed height as the lifter you plan to use.You would set up your dial indicator, select a rocker arm, install it at zero lash if the engine calls for a hydraulic lifter, cycle the engine a few revolutions, and note the maximum lift. You want to be good by a few thousandths in order to pass any tech inspection (tear down) that may occur, but you will find that there are notable variations between rocker arms as to the actual lift they produce. I knew a racer who went pretty fast, who was running a small block combo that went through about 100 new rocker arms and kept the 16 that were the closest. Another thing, when blocks and heads get decked in order to bring combustion chamber CC's down to just above the minimum, and blocks get decked to result in proper deck height, push rod effective length becomes an issue. A long push rod on a SBC will often increase the valve lift to a figure that's out of bounds. Since longer and shorter push rods are available in .050" increments, it's often necessary to use shorter or longer push rods to arrive at that desired lift. Yes, after you do all this 16 times for a given specific individual engine, it's time consuming. Very labor intensive. Also, a change in camshafts or heads or anything else within the basic structure of that engine will result in changes in all your specs. Add to that the necessary piston to valve clearances, and how to obtain that, and there's another necessarily mandated spec. Don't forget, changing the deck height of the block and the deck surface of the heads that much will result in a long block where the intake won't always fit. It will sit up high and the bolt holes in the heads will be obviously off. That means sending the intake to a machine shop where they understand this stuff (find one and keep him-they're rare),and the gasket surfaces have to be flycut probably around .060" or so. Then, once the intake is assembled onto the long block, the distributor won't seat all the way. Forcing it down with a heavy duty clamp will probably bind up the oil pump. A distributor spacer of .100-.125" comes into play . The symptom of this is an engine that won't stay properly timed without the distributor moving. Seems that if you change one thing, other things come into play. I gained a higher regard for automotive engineers that deal with all this stuff daily after being through a few Stock Eliminator projects. Zora Arkus Duntov was the Einstein of Detroit as far as I am concerned. He and Grumpy Jenkins would have been quite a team, that's for sure!
 
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Greg Reimer

Well Known Member
In retrospect, reviewing the '66 283/220 horse car, a Bel Air 2 door sedan, 3690 pounds minimum with driver, with the constraints of the rules we had 30 years ago, we'll compare that and subtract the improvements that subsequent rule revisions would have done. All this comparison is on paper only.
Avg. baseline ET in 1988-90. 13.85, 96 MPH
1. Radial 9 inch slicks and light Weld Drag Star wheels -.12 - 13.73
2. Light front tires and rims -.03 - 13.70
3. Proper torque converter -.12 - 13.58
4. 2:08 low gear Powerglide -.12 - 13.46
5. Serious 4 jet carb, Dean-o,Hedworth,Holroyd,etc. -.10 - 13.36
6. #459 intake (legal update as per NHRA) -.12 - 13.24
7. Electric water pump -.05- 13.19
8.MSD Pro Billet distributor -.09- 13.10

Now, all this is without a trick motor. Now, lets build a better 283! -.40- 12.70.
 
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