409 3 speed transmission

heddrik

Well Known Member
I read here somewhere that 409 hi po 3 speed trans was a ford unit. Anyone know the part number, did it require a bell housing adapter , can you find them, etc., etc., etc.? I imagine a 62 380 horse with a 3 speed is a very rare drivetrain combination.
 

427John

Well Known Member
I don't think the borg warner T-85 could be considered a ford unit even though that is what ford used in that time period.Other makes used that trans too and is the trans that the T-10 4 speed was designed from.It was a strong transmission and was fords choice for use behind their high performance engines until their version of the T-10 became available.I don't know if the T-85 was the trans used behind the 62 409 but it would make sense,even Mopar used it behind their max wedge engines early on.
 

k9hotrodder409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 15
Early GTOs did get a Ford 3 speed in some but took the GM bolt pattern.
When I bought my 66 Olds 442 it was delivered with a FO MO CO 3-speed' I ordered a 4 speed for the car from the parts dept .and was told because there was a strike at the plant and I might not receive one for a few months. I got it about a month later.
 

heddrik

Well Known Member
Thank you for the information, I have never seen a 3 speed on a 409, was thinking it would be neat to find and use one. How would you tell the ford bolt pattern on the bell housing from the GM pattern? ( if there is a difference?)Thought maybe I could find one online?
 

Don Jacks

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 3
If you can find one,it'll likely come from a Pontiac or Olds application.While rare,they made a lot more of them than they made 409 3 speed cars.If memory serves correctly,the "ears" on that transmission were drilled for both applications.
 

heddrik

Well Known Member
Thank you Mr. Jacks. So I should look for GTO's and 442's from early to mid 60's I guess. T85 is a correct designation? The reason I am interested is I see all these 3 speed Bel airs and Biscaynes that would make great 409 cars. They are usually in better shape than 2 doors and SS 's. Update the rear end etc. and drop in a 409 for quick fun with a period correct 3 speed. 4 speed later probably. Z bar, etc is already there.
 

heddrik

Well Known Member
LOL! Thank you 58 delivery! I am aware they were undesirable. Looking at it as a bridge to a future 4 speed. A penis reduction would have me in Bruce Jenner's social class.
 

Tom Kochtanek

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 12
I've got two three-on-the-tree vehicles (a 61 Belair and a 62 Biscayne) and it intrigues me to think that they could have "W" engines in the compartment and that unique column shift :). Just temporarily of course, the real build should have a BW T-10...
 

Don Jacks

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 3
Police depts. most often used the cheaper 3 speed column shifted transmissions.Ask me how many times I blew up,and overhauled one of those old Chev.transmissions behind a 265.If you're even thinking about putting your foot in it,go directly to 4 speed,do not pass go!
 

Blk61409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
Police depts. most often used the cheaper 3 speed column shifted transmissions.Ask me how many times I blew up,and overhauled one of those old Chev.transmissions behind a 265.If you're even thinking about putting your foot in it,go directly to 4 speed,do not pass go!

Yep, I can’t remember how many times I had to pull the 3 speed trans out from behind my 56 Chevy 265, disassemble it and put the synchronizer back together. Every time I would speed shift into 2nd gear I would blow out the end. That’s how I learned to double clutch after a little street racing.

I think a new one was $18, cheaper to just keep putting the end back in.

Yep, just go with the T-10 now, unless you want to call and I’ll help you put the synchronizers back together:) :) :)
 

427John

Well Known Member
Early GTOs did get a Ford 3 speed in some but took the GM bolt pattern.
Skip,yes some 66-67 maybe some 65 GM A-bodies got them,I believe the bolt pattern was standard Ford thats why a lot of BOP bellhousing from that era had 2 bolt patterns drilled and tapped the second was Ford pattern,the tailhousing was specific to them though i think it was about the shifter mounts and output shaft size to match gm size and spline.Heddrick the 3 speed that 6 cyl. and sbc cars had in the early 60'swas I believe a saginaw product that was physically a lot smaller than the later saginaw 3 speeds so small it would appear that they weren't up to the task of living behind the big motors but who knows looks can be deceiving,I don't know if they used that trans behind the 409.Most manufacturers had their own 3 speeds by then but they mostly weren't up to living behind the big motors,most of the manufacturers spec'd the T-85 either with or without overdrive for their heavy duty/high performance apps. including ford,mopar,and at least pontiac as far as gm,I'm assuming chevy did for the 409 also but don't know that for sure,the early saginaw is so small it just looks incapable of handling that power.The later saginaw and the ford 3.03 3 speed which came on line in ~63-64 are much stronger boxes than their predecessors with the ford 3.03 being possibly the strongest of them all.I'm not overly familiar with the early saginaw but have heard plenty of stories of their failure when subjected to spirited driving.If you are set on running a 3 speed I would definitely do plenty of research on the capabilties of the early saginaw before choosing it.
 

427John

Well Known Member
Heddrik,if you really want to run a 3 speed behind a 425 horse 409 your best chance of success will be with the T-85 or Ford 3.03,while the Ford 3.03 is probably the strongest(ford wasn't afraid to spec it any car behind any engine)the T-85 has the added benefit of being available with overdrive while the 3.03 was never offered with it.Some people may argue that ford offered the overdrive in pickups clear to the late 60's after the 3.03 replaced the T-85 in the mid 60's in these cases ford spec'ed the T-85 O/D,while non O/D apps. got the 3.03 trans.Another simpler option could be the later saginaw 3 speed that was also available with overdrive in the mid to late 60's,I don't have personal experience with that trans. but it is reputed to be a fairly strong box compared to the earlier version.A sorted T-85 with O/D makes for very street friendly setup for these cars first gear ratio is actually lower than a wide ratio T-10 so that it doesn't require as low a rear axle ratio and O/D makes for great hiway cruising.Just be aware first that 1'st gear is non syncro.
 
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Skip FIx

Well Known Member
You know in the 70s one of my street racing buddies preferred the 3 speeds. He felt for his driving the gear split was better. Used them behind 455 Pontiacs-even the one he put in a 65 Chevelle body. His 455 65 GTO was purple and had "Purple Haze" painted on the side:) And what sold me on a scattershield! Looked like an Uzi hit the floorboard and hood and his foot. He raced Chevies too -now does dirt track sprint cars in Dallas.

His way of lightening one was to take out about half the bolts in the front end body work!
 

427John

Well Known Member
I would agree,a big engine with some decent rev capability and wide powerband won't miss that gear in the middle and that is 1 less to miss on the street,that plus the fact that the old hurst synchro lok was every bit the shifter the comp plus was.Back then street racing was more about who made a cleaner run than who had the faster car,there just wasn't that much spread between how fast the cars were.(Except for the ringers anyway.)
 

427John

Well Known Member
I remember when I was a kid my future brother in law had a 67 GTO 400 with 1 of the aforementioned ford 3 speed trans.and on the street it was no handicap at all.
 

heddrik

Well Known Member
The reason i started this thread was because I knew a saginaw of any age would never hold up to a 409. Now I have learned that the trans was a tough T85 , so maybe I can find one as a filler until I can get a four speed. The overdrive brings a new wrinkle in here, I have seen 62 Bel air with an overdrive, never knew it could have been one of the heavy duty T85s.The un synchro 1st gear is a bummer tho. Thank you all are for chiming in , I appreciate the education.
 
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