409 3 speed transmission

oldskydog

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 10
For 62-63 the 3 spd was the same on the 327 and 409 engines with 2.47:1 on first, 1.53 on second, 1.1 on 3rd and 2.80 on reverse. Overdrive was not available on 409.
In 64, 3 spd was not available on 409 engines. 3 spd trans on 327's changed to 2.58 on first, 1.48 on second and 1.0 (of couse) on third and 2.58 reverse.
 
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heddrik

Well Known Member
Thank you oldskydog. How do you remember all this stuff? I did see an o d unit on a 3 speed belair, think it was a 327 car but not sure. Was that a factory option or a dealer add on or an owner add on????
 

heddrik

Well Known Member
I have no idea where to look!!!! Tom, please let me know if you put a 3 speed and an 09 together in one of your cars. Thanks.
 

Skip FIx

Well Known Member
"Back then street racing was more about who made a cleaner run than who had the faster car,there just wasn't that much spread between how fast the cars were.(Except for the ringers anyway.)" You mean that 64 Impala with a "348 truck motor" 4.56s aluminum flywheel for top end pull and cheater slicks on the street:)
 

El Rat

Well Known Member
Well I bought a 409 from a local police man it was in 1964 (a 62 model 380 hp three speed )
It was industrctable and very fast! I don’t remember ever being outrun on the street. It went high 13s at local drags trip. They would turn off the clock and just give you the printed ticket!
 

Skip FIx

Well Known Member
Weird deal speaking of the Gay's Pontiac. A few years ago going to get lunch I saw a '69 Firebird orange with Judge type stripes at the inspection station next door so walked over there. It had a RAV motor in it(RAV heads only over the counter late 6os early 70s) owner was shocked I knew what it was. He had gotten it from one of the Gays they put a 428 shortblock under some RAV heads at the dealership.

My 64's best track time open headers was low 12s @ 108mph. Fairly fast for a street car early 70s.
 

brushwolf

Well Known Member
There are multiple fairly economical ways to use the Ford Transmission on a GM motor. I have a 60's BOP bellhousing in my back garage with a 63 Ford Galaxie T10 bolted to it and another BOP aluminum bellhousing in a pile that is exactly the same.

As previously mentioned, that era BOP bellhousing is drilled for both early Ford and standard GM patterns. Read somewhere that the factory supplying the GM versions had a fire and so couldn't supply the GM versions and that's why the Ford bolt pattern transmission came in some 60's GM cars.

I also have a 327 with a Lakewood bellhousing on it and a later (67?) Ford Toploader with the wider bolt pattern bolted to that. The Lakewood has both narrow and wide Ford bolt patterns on it, so it will accommodate a T85 also. But, I think that version of the Lakewood is discontinued now and only available used.

Then while gathering up parts for my 60 Impala I also found an adapter bellhousing that looks like original equipment (front part may actually be a GM part...) for Chev motors on Ebay. It has only the early Ford T85 or early narrow Toploader bolt pattern. Not sure if it accepts the larger 168 tooth Chev flywheel size, but suspect it does from comparing it with a stock 348 bellhousing..

If you happen to do a lot of highway driving but don't want too-tall gearing, you may well feel the need for some kind of OD, as I do. So, I have hoarded at least 4 of the early Ford T85's with OD.

Read somewhere that BW produced a very few T85's for late 50's BOP too, but they are rarer than hen's teeth. So, if you want both a HD 3 speed and OD, I think the Ford T85 is the most practical option. Downside as also mentioned is, it isn't a fully synchronized transmission. But, it is rugged...

My 60 has a stick column, so at first I thought I would just leave that column linkage and use a mid-60's Chev 3 speed with OD (which I also scrounged up). Then being aware that Chev 3 speed (63?)is weaker than the T85, I thought maybe I'll just use the FordT85 with OD instead. A little linkage rod and front driveshaft modification and I would be set..

Then it occurred to me that I may as well use the T56, since I enjoyed driving my TA with a T56 so much and I was also curious how the 348 would perform with the abundant gear selections of that transmission.

So, now I also have the T56 rebuilt with a relocated shifter and an adapter LT1 type 153 tooth flywheel, but haven't completely resolved the starter issue yet, or the likely tunnel mod's required. Decisions, decisions...

Here is the adapter bellhousing that will accommodate both the early Ford 4 speed toploaders and T10's, as well as a 3 speed Ford T85... (Or the weaker Ford T86 for that matter..)
 

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heddrik

Well Known Member
Thank you so much for your post, you have more fully echoed my own thoughts. Is there a part number for that adapter? Is it a GM part number or a Ford? Does it mate up to a 553/552 bellhousing? Wouldn't it require a longer shaft on transmission? How on earth did you find 4 T85's with overdrive? The ones I have seen were as expensive as a Tremec 5 speed, well, almost. I have looked in junkyards trying to locate BOP with the T85 but no luck.
 

brushwolf

Well Known Member
That bell pictured is two pieces. I believe the front cast iron part has a GM number on it, but the rear part is cast aluminum and didn't have any numbers IDT.

I know more about Ford motors and transmissions than GM and only did Ford projects back 20 years ago, so I was grabbing those T85's whenever I saw one not too ridiculously expensive, because I prefer sticks and wanted OD and durability also.

IIRC, the two pieces together of the bell pictured were the same depth as the 348 bellhousing, which I think would make sense - or else it would require added transmission mod's that would eliminate the logic of making the adapter in the first place (easily swapping a Ford transmission in...).

So, if I was making a rear section Ford transmission adapter to bolt to a GM front section, IDK why I would make it anything but the right depth for the typical Ford input shaft of the era. I have no idea why GM made these front bell parts that are apparently a partial bellhousing, but maybe someone else does. Industrial or boat motors perhaps?

I have it in a box with other clutch parts and flywheels right now and not sure I can lift stuff to check just yet because of recent shoulder surgery. Heavy stuff for one arm..

Since 1994 I have been on EBay, but I don't go there as often anymore as the deals are not as good and shipping restrictions and cost are more of a drawback. Think I bought most of them off Ebay, or other online Ford or CL ad forums and the heavy transmissions were still just under UPS weight limit at the time.

At that time you could buy them for around $200-$300 and probably ship at around $40-50 from either coast, so yeah, money sure doesn't go as far now. Inflation Is a big part of that though.

Bought a bunch of 4 speeds back then too, but think the only GM ones were probably Saginaws. I bought mostly toploaders and Ford T10's which also were just under UPS weight limits for shipping packages at the time.

Only GM T85 for BOP I ever saw listed was for $1,000 and the ad was real old when I saw it. Ford T85's don't come up quite as often anymore, but I have still seen them occasionally on some Ford, or hot rod sites.. (HAMB, Ford Barn, etc..) and still not usually over $300, sometimes less.

Mike
 

brushwolf

Well Known Member
Got a little more info on the oddball Chev motor to early Ford T10, Toploader, or T85 transmission bell combo I have. It wasn't in a box after all, so I took a few pics.

Part number on the cast iron front half is GM2 3836142 and it is for a 55-56 Powerglide and is called a "V8 adapter plate". Similar 1957 part number is 3733293, allegedly. The Powerglide in all 3 of those years used a 168 tooth flex plate. That would infer that a 168 tooth flywheel would fit in it also. This info is all from ancient threads on "chevytalk" forum in tri five section that I found by searching the GM part number on mine.

As can be seen in the photo's, these "V8 adapters" used the bell mounted 55-57 starter which are available from Ecklers (the manual and automatic also used the same starter apparently...), for $114.99 plus shipping - or a Powermaster 3635 High Torque starter is available for 55-57 Chev from "21 Motorsports" for $163.62 including shipping. That being said, maybe the later block mounted starter could also be used, IDK...

The mysterious rear half of the bell I have does have the numbers 5153 cast on it, but nothing else. Tried a bunch of searches with that 5153 number in combination with names like Offenhauser, etc... Nothing... Someone else want to give that a shot with aftermarket adapter specialist companies of yesteryear?

Anyway, it still looks like it would work..

Mike
 

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David Soper

Member
Supporting Member 1
i ordered a 1962 409 ss with a three speed in may of 1962. with the 380 hp motor. i raced a 1958 bel air with three speed on the column and had never shifted a 4 speed on the floor. the car came with out a tach. i broke the transmission three times and dealer said no more . broke synchronizers off speed shifting. bought t10 and shifter
 

427John

Well Known Member
Mike,the aluminum portion looks very much like a cragar adapter bell I have for an early buick nailhead.Cragar and offy were essentially the same parts just had different logos in some cases they even used the same part number.Wilcap's were also the same in some cases,they are so similar that I suspect the same foundry cast them for those companies,I believe Honest Charlie's also sourced some of their store brand adapters from them also.A lot of the adapters for GM's back then were designed to be used with the powerglide or hydramatic adapters,I've seen old catalogs that specified that under the description sometimes even listing the GM part number for it.
 

427John

Well Known Member
Thank you so much for your post, you have more fully echoed my own thoughts. Is there a part number for that adapter? Is it a GM part number or a Ford? Does it mate up to a 553/552 bellhousing? Wouldn't it require a longer shaft on transmission? How on earth did you find 4 T85's with overdrive? The ones I have seen were as expensive as a Tremec 5 speed, well, almost. I have looked in junkyards trying to locate BOP with the T85 but no luck.
Heddrick,finding a GM pattern T-85 is going to be unlikely since Pontiac appears to be only one to use it and it being a mid level model most of them from that time frame came with auto's.While full bell adapters are getting fewer and farther between,there are plate adapters still available new to mate Ford trans to GM bellhousings.While pass car T-85's are getting harder to find and expensive, Ford truck T-85 OD's are still fairly common and less expensive they do require having a driveline made to mate up to the shorter tailhousing and bolt on yoke.They do have the plus of having both early and late bolt patterns where it mounts to the bell.
 
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