409 3 speed transmission

[brushwolf]

55 Brodie,

I"ll take your word for 5193 part being Offenhauser being that had been my first guess, but is there anything on line you know of that would confirm that to any skeptics?

Thanks, Mike

 

[brushwolf]

i ordered a 1962 409 ss with a three speed in may of 1962. with the 380 hp motor. i raced a 1958 bel air with three speed on the column and had never shifted a 4 speed on the floor. the car came with out a tach. i broke the transmission three times and dealer said no more . broke synchronizers off speed shifting. bought t10 and shifter

Which kind of confirms once again that the early T10 is stronger than the 3 speed GM of that era. IIRC, Ford did not have the T10 (or any car 4 speed) available until 1962, but I have been told by old hard-core Ford guys that the T10's were frequently disentegrated by the early Ford hi-PO big blocks too, and that is why Ford developed the Toploader in 1964 to replace the T10. I have multiples of both in my hoard, so not dissing any of them.

Just like the Ford 9 inch came out in 1957 to replace the earlier Ford axle. They replaced the weakest existing part of the drivetrain in both cases and did a pretty good job of it, since both the Toploader transmissions and 9" axles are still around and remain popular today.

Thanks, Mike

 

[brushwolf]

Mike,the aluminum portion looks very much like a cragar adapter bell I have for an early buick nailhead.Cragar and offy were essentially the same parts just had different logos in some cases they even used the same part number.Wilcap's were also the same in some cases,they are so similar that I suspect the same foundry cast them for those companies,I believe Honest Charlie's also sourced some of their store brand adapters from them also.A lot of the adapters for GM's back then were designed to be used with the powerglide or hydramatic adapters,I've seen old catalogs that specified that under the description sometimes even listing the GM part number for it.

Lot of semi-forgotten old speed equipment names there.. I wouldn't doubt they had a common foundry. The casting on mine looks well done, no porous sections and finished well machining-wise. That would make sense for the aftermarket to use that PG adapter for the front half of an adapter bell. What is this Hydramatic adapter of which you speak?

Thanks, Mike

 

[brushwolf]

Heddrick,finding a GM pattern T-85 is going to be unlikely since Pontiac appears to be only one to use it and it being a mid level model most of them from that time frame came with auto's.While full bell adapters are getting fewer and farther between,there are plate adapters still available new to mate Ford trans to GM bellhousings.While pass car T-85's are getting harder to find and expensive, Ford truck T-85 OD's are still fairly common and less expensive they do require having a driveline made to mate up to the shorter tailhousing and bolt on yoke.They do have the plus of having both early and late bolt patterns where it mounts to the bell.

That reminds me, I also have a T85 side linkage shifted transmission somewhere around here from a Ford pickup. It isn't overdrive like the car transmission and exactly as you say, has a short tail and a yoke on the rear IIRC. Just saved it in case, but not sure if it will eventually end up in the iron pile, as I doubt many parts fit a car transmission. Maybe the gears in the main case do, IDK.. Never looked into it at all really, as my focus was on those having the overdrives.

Thanks, Mike

 

[brushwolf]

TransDapt or Ansen are other possibles.

You'd have to really want a three speed to jump through those hoops.

True, but there is a sub-set of people in our hobby that like unusual stuff (like W motors, perhaps..) and some folks kind of like the relative rarity of seeing a column shifted stick car, as they are getting few and far between.

Have seen people rig up 4 speeds to a 3 speed column and use a separate rod thru the floor peeking out under the seat for reverse. It's sloppy shifting compared to a Hurst 4 speed external shifter sure, but then any T5 or T56 with rail shifting makes the Hurst feel relatively sloppy too. I have a 68 Torino convertible with a 351c and Toploader with a Hurst that feels positively ancient to shift compared to my (now my son's..) TA with a T56.

However, a 3 speed with overdrive isn't really justa 3 speed. You can split gears with the OD and I have heard stories around here that back in the 60's there was a 61 Z code Starliner (factory cast iron headers and a bunch of other high performance factory upgrades) that dominated the local drag strip. It had a T85 OD, low rear gear, and the story goes that it was shifted 1,2,2 OD. Since Ford didn't have the T10 yet with 1961 production cars, the T85 filled the void at the time.

I have seen kits advertised on EBay that claim to increase the efficiency of shifting back and forth between OD and not OD, effectively giving you a six speed. Think I bought one of those kits too, but IDK where I put it and can't attest to whether it works as advertised.

Anyway, point being that a 3 speed with OD has at least 5 forward gears if desired: 1, 2, 2 OD, 3, 3 OD. So, if you want to keep a manual column shift and also perceive the need for an OD for effortless freeway 70+ mph driving, the T85 OD fills the bill economically and that's why I had been keeping any of them that I ran across.

Far as racing goes, not many people can out shift an automatic transmission anyway. But, not everyone races their toys either.

If I had such a desire and using a Ford stick transmission though, I think I would go to the old discontinued Lakewood Chev motor to Ford Toploader bell, and not the adapter set up shown above. Suspect the aluminum aftermarket section might break under real hard use.

As far as a non-OD 3 speed though, I pretty much agree with your emoticon.. Why?

Thanks, Mike

 

[55Brodie]

55 Brodie,

I"ll take your word for 5193 part being Offenhauser being that had been my first guess, but is there anything on line you know of that would confirm that to any skeptics?

Thanks, Mike

Just Google Offenhauser 5193 and you should see a pdf catalog. It's on page 42. The file is too large to attach.

 

[brushwolf]

The description and part number match exactly, but the image doesn't. The fact that the part number matches though, would seem to indicate that they used the wrong image when that Catalog was printed. "Must use Chev automatic Transmission plate" likely refers to the 55-57 PG V8 adapter plate as well.

Person that I got the two main bell parts from on HAMB didn't know who made it either, but knew it was Chev motor to Ford 49-64 transmission which was obvious to me too looking at the transmission bolt pattern. Mystery solved as far as I am concerned...

Thanks, Mike

 

[427John]

Lot of semi-forgotten old speed equipment names there.. I wouldn't doubt they had a common foundry. The casting on mine looks well done, no porous sections and finished well machining-wise. That would make sense for the aftermarket to use that PG adapter for the front half of an adapter bell. What is this Hydramatic adapter of which you speak?

Thanks, Mike

Mike the hydro adapter is the one that mates it to the chev v-8 in trucks they are hard to find but thats the 1 that allowed guys to run hydro sticks in the tri 5 sedan deliveries in NHRA since it was classified as a truck.It was similar to the powerglide 1 you have and also required a specific flywheel/flexplate deal that was basically the front part of the fluid coupling or whatever they called it.

 

[427John]

Which kind of confirms once again that the early T10 is stronger than the 3 speed GM of that era. IIRC, Ford did not have the T10 (or any car 4 speed) available until 1962, but I have been told by old hard-core Ford guys that the T10's were frequently disentegrated by the early Ford hi-PO big blocks too, and that is why Ford developed the Toploader in 1964 to replace the T10. I have multiples of both in my hoard, so not dissing any of them.

Just like the Ford 9 inch came out in 1957 to replace the earlier Ford axle. They replaced the weakest existing part of the drivetrain in both cases and did a pretty good job of it, since both the Toploader transmissions and 9" axles are still around and remain popular today.

Thanks, Mike

Agreed that the T-10 and the T-85 it was based on were much stronger than the 3 speeds of the time,the T-10 actually was available in mid year 61 for the Fords it came as a kit in the trunk for dealer installation just like the tripower setup.Thats why the tailshaft on the Ford T-10's was so long so it could swapped in place of a T-85 OD and use the same driveshaft.The kit included the floor shifter and the floor hump as well as a blank tube to eliminate the column shift lever.Non- XL 62's used the same setup just installed on the assembly lines.Also agreed that being marginally adequate spurred the develoment of the toploader.I believe the T-10 was more successful in the chevy's due to fact that the corvette was much lighter and the full size cars had a weaker link in the 2 piece driveline and the 8.2 rear.

 

[brushwolf]

Yep, I recall with the early-mid 60's cars being run hard in my small city during the late 60's and early 70's, the Chev rear end would usually go first and the Ford transmission would usually go first if running a T10 in the full size cars. Weakest link in a chain and all that.. Had occasionally heard the two-piece driveshaft had some limitations also, but not often. Chev motors always seemed pretty to run stronger than Fords of similar displacement, but sure broke a lot of rear axles.

Everyone I knew that had a W motor with a stick behind it and ran it hard ended up replacing cranks and rods multiple times and the motor soon fell out of favor with preference given over to the 327 and 396 instead and the general opinion of W motors being that they could not tolerate high rpm's well. People with automatics fared better with their W's, we presumed because of lower RPM. But who wanted an automatic with the cool new 4 speeds around?

I didn't know that the T10 was available as a dealer installed option in 61 Fords. Interesting.. I'll have to check the date codes on one of the Ford T10's I have that I was told came from a 61, but my thinking was it must really be a 62..

 

[Greg Reimer]

Someone asked about "your experiences with a 3 speed". In 1974 I bought a 62 Impala hardtop, not a real good looking car, it was oxidized gray,looked like primer but it wasn't. It had a 250 horse 348 in place of the original 283, and it was a factory 3 speed. It ws fun to drive, and I put a lot of miles on it. It got parted out after an accident the following summer. A local junkyard had a couple of '62's, so I bought one of them, and installed the 348 and the stick, although the old crash box non syncro 3 speed had been replaced by a Muncie before that.That was when a Muncie 4 speed with a Hurst Competition Plus shifter was available for $100.00 or so. It was a lot easier to swap all this stuff when you have all the stuff you need off of a parts car. The second '62 got one of several 409's, and it became my bracket car. Meanwhile, while dating the young lady that became my wife, we were out one night and noticed a red/white top '65 Impala convertible sitting in a driveway with a 4 Sale sign on it. We went back the next day, and talked to the seller, test drove it, and bought it for $650. It had a beige bench seat interior and had a 250 horse 327 with a 3 speed non synchro stick on the column. I drove it for about 6 months while Janet was going to school at UC Davis, and in the mean time, the 3 speed took on a noticeable bad growl. One parts source I had asked me if I wanted to buy a trans out of a '66 Chevy. I went back and looked at it, it was a full synchro saginaw unit,so I grabbed it for $35 and installed it during my lunch at the dealer I worked at. The linkage off the column even came with it. Took about 15 minutes or so. The crash box was last used in '65, and the Saginaw full synchro unit came out in '66. Easiest bolt in upgrade I ever saw. Later, I found a wrecked '65 Impala SS hardtop, black interior, 396/325 horse, front end sheet metal had been removed, and the 396 was full of rain water. I put a 4 speed in my ragtop, got a 4 speed SS Impala console, and switched out the entire interior,dash, wiring harnesses and all, and also had put a 340 horse 409 in the convertible by then. With a 12 bolt with 3.31 gears and the 2 1/2 " exhaust on it, it was a real road monster. It would tow about anything, as well. It had a frame hitch so it got lots of trailer duty. Well, later I decided to sell the '65, but nobody wanted to pay much for it because it wasn't the original 409, even though it was a '65 409 JB block. I built my first Chevelle stocker by then, so I put together a 327 250 horse engine but with regular gas heads, and put the Powerglide from one of the Chevelles in it, switched the brake and clutch pedal assembly over to a PG wide brake pedal, and did it all stock. It turned out well and I not only got my price for the convertible, but sold the 409 engine and got about $8000 for all this stuff. I had the red convertible for 19 years,put 3 motors, 4 transes, 2 convertible tops on it, painted it once, and did a nice conversion from a plain Impala to an SS.I actually got 10 times for the car in 1995 than what I gave for it in 1976. I think the only part I still have from that '65 convertible is the original and correct Carter WCFB carburetor that still worked when I pulled the original 327 and swapped in the 409. If a 3 speed stick is your thing, use the all synchro Saginaw unit. They work very well and will stand up to a 409 a lot longer than the little crash box would.

 

[427John]

I didn't know that the T10 was available as a dealer installed option in 61 Fords. Interesting.. I'll have to check the date codes on one of the Ford T10's I have that I was told came from a 61, but my thinking was it must really be a 62..

Yeah a late 61 Ford ordered with the 401 horse motor and 4 speed transmission showed up with a full trunk at the dealer and believe me those cars had a huge trunk,I'm 6'1" and can stretch out diagonally in the trunk of my 61 Starliner.

 

[rstreet]

Agreed that the T-10 and the T-85 it was based on were much stronger than the 3 speeds of the time,the T-10 actually was available in mid year 61 for the Fords it came as a kit in the trunk for dealer installation just like the tripower setup.Thats why the tailshaft on the Ford T-10's was so long so it could swapped in place of a T-85 OD and use the same driveshaft.The kit included the floor shifter and the floor hump as well as a blank tube to eliminate the column shift lever.Non- XL 62's used the same setup just installed on the assembly lines.Also agreed that being marginally adequate spurred the develoment of the toploader.I believe the T-10 was more successful in the chevy's due to fact that the corvette was much lighter and the full size cars had a weaker link in the 2 piece driveline and the 8.2 rear.

Somewhere I have the 1961 "Hot Rod" magazine that revealed that Ford 4 speed option and 401 HP tripower on the 61 Starliners.
Robert

 

[heddrik]

Wow, Thank you for all the input!This is all part of a master plan, a poor man's bubble. Buy a decent 4 dr bel air, a lot came with 3 on the tree. Put a 61 Impala roof on , add a 409 and try to find a 3 speed that will last. I don't think a saginaw would last long even going easy, so I look for the original 3 speed , a T85. Im looking at a 409 bell housing next week, so thought I would troll this site looking for a T85. Lo and behold, brushwood has one! three! And a bell housing that adapts. I have heard of 65 Oldsmobiles with the trans, can't seem to find one. What fun . Again gentlemen, thank you for the stories and input that make this site so easy to come to.

 

[427John]

Heddrik,as Greg related in his post the later saginaw 3 speed was a much stronger box than the earlier non syncro versions,while I don't have much experience with them I always thought they looked to be a stronger design and had friends who drove them hard behind strong engines and they held up,plus they were available with the borg warner style OD too.If you could find 1 of them that would be the easiest swap.I believe the cars and trucks used the same trans.

 

[427John]

If you search on ebay for saginaw 3 speed w OD you'l see some pictures of both the early and late style,of course the prices are really high but I don't think that reflects real world I would think you should be able to find some locally for more reasonable prices.

 

[oldskydog]

HD 3 spd used on SS396 Chevelle and full size must have been pretty strong.

 

[heddrik]

Thank you for the information. I was unaware of the 396's using the later saginaw. I saw a 327 62 impala with the OD once back in the 80's, looked factory. Is this the 3 speed used in later trucks that was synchronized? Any part numbers for the heavy duty version Mr. Cecil the encyclopedia? LOL.

 

[oldskydog]

 

[heddrik]

Wow, ask and you shall receive. Thank you Mr. Cecil! 3891776 is trans number?