409 vs Big Block Debate

[droptop62]

I am interested in knowing how you guys really feel about the 409 Engine.
It is pretty obvious that everybody here is very passionate about their W block.
The 409 engine is obviously very unique, has a wild racing history, and so on......
But what I am asking is this, Do you think the W block 409 is a superior engine to the Big Block that replaced it?
I wanted a 409 just because they are different, but I personally think the big block Chev is a far better engine.
So, how do you guys really feel about your 409??

 

[Mr Goodwrench]

ooooooo you relly know how to hurt a guy, but I have to agree with you, BUT they was damn fine in there day!!!!!!! and not to shabby to-day, just expensive.
hold on this could get nasty.

 

[No409]

i think the BBC is a better motor, and a lot less expensive to build, but everyone wants to look at a 409. ya just dont see them anymore. everything has a big block in it nowadays

 

[JimKwiatkowski]

I have both engines and I have to say the Big Block wins out,but when it came to selecting an engine for the 57 I went with the 409,because everybody had a Big Block

 

[348NUT]

I'll have to say I was a bit concerned about putting the 348 in instead of a small block, I thought it would get terrible gas mileage and be a dog.
BOY was I wrong! It's only a stock 250hp but gets better mileage and has more power than any 350 small block I've ever driven.
I hate 350 small blocks! But I love 348s

p.s. Yes I realize there are plenty of 350s that would blow my doors off, I'm talking mild engines here, but I truly believe the design is more efficient

 

[oldskydog]

I'm a newcomer here and certainly no expert but here's my 2 cents. I don't think the BBC is necessarily better than the 348\409 but there is no doubt that the BB is easier and cheaper to build since it has a much longer production and performance history than the W and is widely supported by the aftermarket. To define better I think you have to define its intended use. If you want to power a tank or other extreme vehicle then the BBC has more development potential than the W but if you want to power the average passenger vehicle I would say they are pretty much equal except for availability and expense . Other than that there is a lot to be said for esthetics. The BBC just can't hold a candle to the W for looks. I don't know about you, but don't want to have a McEngine. I want something different.

 

[droptop62]

I think we all know the 409 is unique.
and rare, it was only made for 5 years.
OK Consider removing any aftermarket parts from the topic.
Lets not get into price of rebuilding, it is obvious that there is more stuff available for the big block. yes the 409 and 348 engines are rare and people step around a car to see one, and that is only because there are not as many of these out there compared to the big block and small block chev. that doesn't make it a better engine, it just makes it rare. and I wouldn't say a big block should be called a "McEngine"
Would you say that a 1970 LS6 450HP 454 is a McEnigine?? or an aluminum cylinder head 427 is your average big block?

I want to compare these engines as they were from the factory.
One of my issues that makes the Big Block a better engine is the fact there is a design flaw in the 348 and 409 blocks. The blocks crack and not just a few, the majority of them.

The 1955 small block chevrolet engine was designed and put into use before the advent of the 348 and then 409, the big block came next in 1965.
both the small and big block are still being used today virtually identical to the first versions. the "W" only lasted 8 years. (includes both 348/409)

Like I said earlier I have my 409 because it is different, and rare. But I still don't think it is a better engine.

 

[JIMS409]

Oldskydog

Hey Oldskydog, is that your T-28 on your avatar?

*****************************************************************

 

[Bungy]

OK I'll through in my 2 cents. I think the BBC is the better engine. It has much better breathing characteristics then the W's but with that said, I'll take a W over a BBC any day of the week.

 

[jim_ss409]

I think the big block is a great engine. It borrowed alot from the "W" but most of the differences were improvements. But I don't think that means the "W" is a bad engine. I don't think you have to look any farther than the 574hp "W" motor that Tony Shaffer built to see that these engines can still hold there own even today. The magazines are full of Big Blocks that make that kind of power on pump gas like Tony's engine but most of them are using aftermarket heads. I like the Big Block and I think it's better in most ways but I think it's way cooler to have a "W"

 

[Quickshift409]

Big Block vs 409

What is a Big Block? To me a Big Block is a 454,502,540 all the way to the IHRA 600 plus cubic inch monsters. The 409 was tagged a big block because it was in it's day. Even a bored and stroked 409 only can get into the 470 to 480 area and by todays standard thats small. The Big Block of today has the technology and aftermarket parts from years of research and development. I don't think a 1965 chevy 396 or early 427 was that much faster than a 409. I owned a 67 chevelle 396 and it was not as fast as the 63 Biscayne 409 I had. With the new technology developed today for the 409 they will run very strong, but they just don't have the cubic inch and breathing potential of the new Big Block. Time marches on, the T 28 is not a F-18.
QS409

 

[oldskydog]

jims409

Yep, that's my T-28. I'm impressed. I didn't know there were so many airplane guys here.
Back to the thread, I think it is obvious that the BBC is better than the W otherwise Chevy wouldn't have replaced it. At least that is what their engineers and marketing people believed so what are we debating? That said, I believe that if you took a bone stock 396 325hp and a 340hp 409 and put them in like grocery getters they would both do the job equally well. It's only when you start to factor in the other considerations of high performance mods, repair, etc that the differences start to show. As far as the cracking problem on the 409's is it really a design flaw, thin castings, or could it be caused more by the way they were abused? If you think about it , I would imagine that most people who bought the 409s were performance oriented and drove the snot out of them. I don't remember any similar stories of cracking in the trucks that used them but then I don't have any statistics, just my probably incorrect gut feeling. I remember my first 348 58 Delray in 1960 liked to eat pushrods. Do you suppose it had anything to do with my trying to shift at 5500rpm?
My comment about McEngine was not to imply that anything other than a W was inferior but rather expressing the opinion that I believe we all share regarding the uniqueness of the W engine.

 

[threeimpalas]

...I wouldn't say a big block should be called a "McEngine"
Would you say that a 1970 LS6 450HP 454 is a McEnigine?? or an aluminum cylinder head 427 is your average big block?

Yep. Today, a 450 HP 454 isn't special (regardless of whether it's and LS6), nor is it uncommon. Same goes for an aluminum headed BBC (whether it be a 427, 454, 502). In this current day and age, they're both McEngines.

In regards to which is superior - the BBC or W - I'd give the nod to the BBC in all catagories except appearance and uniqueness.

 

[walkerheaders]

as one of the many members who own both, i like them both and they each have a different purpose for my way of doing things. I have a BB powered truck that pulls my BB powered racecar, and a W powered car for a graceful, beautiful, high powered street cruiser, car show winner, and just plain cool car. (like yours).

we once did a pro/con sheet on the forum.......wanna do it again?

"W" pro's :
pleasing to most eyes
cause the old folks to have happy memories
6 head bolts around each cylinder
ability to survive less than top quality fuel
easy to reach spark plugs
easy to re-torque cylinder head bolts
comes with 2 4 barrels
they used to be cheap power before ebay

"W: con's
there overly popular now that everybody has one
short, weak and heavy con rods and pistons
normal parts are overly expensive
blox, heads, and manifolds cost too much.

BB pro's
almost everything

BB con's
i cant think of one

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

What Oldskydog said bang

FACT: A W block is easier and simpler to work on. During assembly, installing pistons, assembling heads. In the car, changing spark plugs, exhaust manifolds... heck, swapping heads while the engine's in the car... not even CLOSE ! The only thing easier is a flathead.

FACT: Valve train reliability. A BBC has the valves staggered/pushrods at varying angles ( granted, this is what permits the superior port flow ). This promotes wear, and CERTAINLY to a degree, can induce failures. I have shifted my street driven W blocks at 7000 RPM for years. I don't know what a valve train failure is.

Cracking ? ? ? ? :?
Maybe if the owners would have put antifreeze in the thing, it wouldn't have froze, and cracked below the deck :takethat
( just thinking out loud here.... that's the only crack I've ever seen )

oh... and FACT:
Noise. I'm sorry BBC guys... in this area, you're NOT EVEN CLOSE ! ! !
A BBC has a "hollow" exhaust note... sounds like it's going to tear the inside of itself apart.
A high winding W block ? This lunatic screaming/growling... sounding like it's going to rip the drive line to pieces. bang

 

[Rockfish39]

Ws,FEs, and HEMIs

: I think that comparing a 409 to a Gen-IV, is kinda like comparing apples to oranges. Like everything else, each has their pros and cons...

The passage of time, technology changes, manufacturing methods, elasticity of demand ect, ect... are just a handfull of factors that were considered when GM made each series.

But the 409, IMHO, is in the same league with FE Fords and Hemi Chryslers and no so much BBCs, even though they were both Chevrolet engines.

All big three engines I mentioned were , more or less, application and, in GM and FORD cases, model specific engines. IE you could not get a 409 in ANY other GM car (save for Canadian Pontiacs) nor could you get it in ANY model other than a FULL SIZED CHEVROLET car...

The rumor about a handfull of 409 vettes coming out of Chevrolet St. Louis in '64 is an old wives tale. IT never happened.

'09s certainly have their place in history, and the low low production of 45,000, or so , units made in just 5 years of production makes it a real scarecity today. ITs the same with HEMIs and FEs. So ask yourself, How cool is owning one regardless of how well it performs???


Lastly, Aubrey is right. a 409 makes about as a distinctive a sound as an H-D motorcycle does. I could tell the difference between a W idleing and a BBC from a block away. Just listen to the song 409 by the Beach Boys, The engine you hear at the very beginning of the song IS a 409, no doubt about it!

Rock

 

[dq409]

:


Lastly, Aubrey is right. a 409 makes about as a distinctive a sound as an H-D motorcycle does. I could tell the difference between a W idleing and a BBC from a block away. Just listen to the song 409 by the Beach Boys, The engine you hear at the very beginning of the song IS a 409, no doubt about it!

Rock

Hey Rock !!! Good points and I whole heartily agree but,,,,,, I think the truth about the engine on the BB song is a 348 !!! Same diff,,,,,, ,,,dq

 

[droptop62]

You guys put up a good fight for defending your passion for the 348/409 engines.
So what I am getting out of this is that the 409 looks better and sounds nice.
Of course the 409 and the big block should be compared, the big block is what replaced the 409. and as far as the cracked blocks is concerned, I don't think the 348 and 409 blocks cracked because somebody was hammering the snot out of them. or because the guys that had them didn't put antifreeze in them. you can go to any other chevrolet website and will still only find people questioning what to do with their cracked 348 or 409 block, never really an issue or topic when the small and big blocks are concerned. You guys need not get uptight over this, this is a debate, not an attack.
Why would I keep my 409 if i did not have some interest in the engine and cars these came in??
I am just looking for some hard eveidence from anyone that believes the 409 could be better than a big block, and somebody if there is somebody out there that thinks GM made a mistake by killing off the "W"

 

[Fathead Racing]

348/409 vs. bigblock?

Well for me, it's the challenge of squeezing the last ounce of performance out of the W engine. Most of the guys I know that have BBs think that they are inherently fast so they just throw some Summit parts at them and belive that they can beat anything on the planet! Those of us who have a boner for the W engine, for the better part, pay attention to the details when we have racing on our minds. This will beat bolt ons every time. I was running a 9.0 comp 348 with three two's before I placed a 09 under the 348 top end. I had a friend with a 65 Impala 396 that would add perfomance parts every year trying to out run the 348, never happened! Another friend of mine had a 48 Plymouth that had a 360 crate engine rated at 300 HP, he also ate dust to the 348. Belive me, these guys are believers now! The guy with the 360 now has a 69 Polara with a 440 build and he is still shaken in his boots that I will kick his ***! On the track with guys that know how to build an engine it is a different story, but not all of them know how to build! Since we are a small group that race the W it's up to us to share performance knowledge and parts and let the weekend warriors know that the 348/409 is still a force to be reckoned with. Is the BB a better engine? NO! just different. I think the most fun is competing against another W engine owner, Giddyup. bang

 

[chev1960]

the 409

I only say this ,the 409 is a legend and always will be and that is that Thank-You.