421 Super Duty VS the 409 or 427-Z11 cars

RCE1962

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 4
We are very fortunate to have this web site, along with its members, that have provided valuable input to most, if not all, of our 348-409 engines and the cars from that era.

The assistance from members who originally purchased or raced these cars, back in the day, or knew somebody that did, is incredibly helpful.

I find it amazing, time after time, that the members here can tell you if “that certain part” was originally there or not, just by going out to the garage and checking their car, or their memory of it, then with others chiming in to back it up.

Having said that…..I’ve got a “Racing Days” question.

I’m wondering about two (2) full size cars in particular. Were they evenly matched or was one “make” fairly dominant?

If the information is out there… I’d like to know how these cars also stacked up against any of the other full size cars back then. If there are pictures,…even better!

THE CARS
1962-1963 Chevrolet 409 cars, including the lightweights…Versus….1962-1963 Pontiac 421 Super Duty cars, including lightweights.

Ron
 

ROYALOAK62

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 1
421 Super Duty VS the 409 or 427-Z-11 cars

Ron,
If you haven't read the book "Factory Lightweights" by Charles R. Morris, I'd do so as his book covers your question very well.
I grow-up in that time frame, in Detroit, but wasn't into drag racing. Did go to the drag's but only to watch from the stands. So I have a very limited understanding of what was happening.
I'm sure some of the real racers well chime in, on your question. Also I believe you should have included the years 61 thru 64 as both the 409 and 421's were at the top of their game plan.
In 63 1/2 Ford was starting to come on strong and in 64 Mopar was taking it over. IHO

Dave
 

RCE1962

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 4
Hey Dave

Thanks for the book reference

Such information between 1961 - 1964 sounds good to me!!


Ron
 

walkerheaders

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 6
it all depended on what driver was doing what on a particular day. but the pontiac was a sturdier car. much less prone to axle and driveshaft failures. in fact all the other major participating brands were not really faster, but a little more reliable.
chevy started figuring it out for 65 with perimeter frame, one driveshaft, 2 upper arms and 12 bolt rear.
 

Tom Kochtanek

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 13
Some excerpts from Extreme Muscle Cars

From:

Extreme Muscle Cars : The Factory Lightweight Legacy
by Bill Holder & Phil Kunz
Forewords by Dick Brannan, Arnie Beswick & Hayden Proffitt

Page 113-115

It appears as if our own Legend, Hayden Proffitt, was the driver of “Mickey Thompson’s 1961 Super Duty that was carrying one of the first 421 S/D powerplants… “ and won the Optional Super Stock Class at the 1961 Indy Nationals.”

And of course Jim Wangers added some excitement to Pontiac racing, running “102.04 MPH in 14.14 seconds with the Royal Super Stocker”, which was an Ace Wilson prepared car out of Royal Pontiac. This was in a 1960 Pontiac.

In late 1960 and early 1961 the 348 was often the power plant of choice for many Chevy racers, and these cars consistently turned 14 seconds at around 100 MPH. Unfortunately, these cars weren't Lightweights. At least not yet!

I suspect the most interesting comparison might be between two specific cars representative of the height of that early era, say from 1963. We would invite a comparison of the 1963 Impala lightweight, the fabled Z-11 factory build. Of course we could complicate things by including Mopar and Ford competitors, but let's keep it to GM for now.

Based on a stroked 409 (to 427 cubic inches) this powerful new "W" engine was mounted inside of a doghouse made mostly of lightweight aluminum components. This included the front fenders, the hood, radiator surround, fan shroud, certain hinges, the inner wheel wells, front bumpers and assorted mounting brackets, those sorts of substitutions. The Z-11 was one-off race car design that was meant to compete with the other Big Boys. Unfortunately come March 1963, support for racing would go dark for the corporate giant GM.

Before that edict, Pontiac was making great progress with a refinement of their base 389 V8, leading to a 421 cubic inch monster. Similar to the Chevy effort, the folks at Pontiac crafted a new block with 4 bolt mains along with special heads, cam, intake, exhaust, along with other goodies. Installed in a aluminum-based lightweight full size Pontiac this was a potent package as well!

From the text: “The “Tin Indian III set a track record at Quaker City Dragway in Ohio of 12.26 seconds and 115.78 miles per hour.” And of course there was Arnie Beswick, running in a variety of 1961 cars around the Midwest and throughout the Southeast. I suspect he had one or more of the 1963 “Swiss Cheese” cars, and those had to be quick!

The 421 S/D engine was a lot like it’s GM brethren the Z-11 engine, as both were stroked versions of their kin, the 389 and the 409 engines of 1961-2 builds. Special heads, cams, cranks, pistons, rods, exhaust and other stout components made up the performance packages for most GM division participating in the Muscle Car era.

From the text under the sub title “1961 Super Stockers “ on page 22 it is noted that guys were running around 100 MPH in 14 seconds or so. These were with 348 builds, as the first batch of 409s were not made until some time around late March of 1961 (as I recall). Using that new engine, rated at 360 horses, “Nicholson rang up a 13.19-second, 109.48 mph times in trials…”. Then the lightweight bug hit Chevrolet, in 1962.

New and improved for ’62, the big 409 cubic inch dual quad engine with 380 or 409 horses (depending on carb choice) was the choice of racers. Better breathing through improved heads (the 2.19 valved 690s) and offering multiple four barrel carbs, this was just the beginning. Later in ’62 some prototype top end parts would appear on a few cars. This included the two piece aluminum intake components topping a specially designed new head (the so called Z-11 head), requiring a slightly modified valve cover. An aluminum water pump cooled this beast. Cowl induction was added along with some lightweight front end parts.

Reportedly there were some 25 aluminum front end-based 1962 cars that were assembled by GM, and some parts were likely exported out the back door to a select few. Who knows how many, we're not quite sure.

On page 26 of the book: “Dyno Don Nicholson took the Top Stock Class in a 1962 Impala 409 turning in an impressive 12.63-second run”.

These developments lead to an offering for a limited production of the fabled Z-11 Impala for 1963. This was a true Lightweight! With some 57 or so made, the Z-11 was a formidable contender. These were first built in late 1962 (the first 25 were made in December of that year). Dave Strickler was quoted as having “an 11.53-second, 123 mile per hour run in his “Old Reliable” machine.” That’s just getting it!

Given the tire technology of the day, those times seem really good. Lots of on tap horsepower in each of these purebred muscle car engines!

As Bob mentions, the cars are one thing, the drivers another. Some were just better than others, and consistent in doing so! And on any given day...

Cheers!
TomK
 

RCE1962

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 4
Dave...Bob and Tom

Thanks for the insight. Good information. :beerbang

As a side note, I think I recall seeing a Z11 being offered for sale for ±$250,000, but have also seen one of these old Lightweight Super Duty cars (Drag Race History) on Ebay a few years ago and the owner was looking for high six figures for the car. I don' recall if he ever got close to his price though. I recall that one of our members mentioned that his next door neighbour had a similar car and was either offered ....or actually sold.... the car for an incredible price.:dunno

I wonder if the Dodge/Plymouth Lighweight cars would fetch big $$$ as well?

Ron
 
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