61 SS Impala 409, Charlie Thomas collection

real61ss

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 8
I think Pat said he had one back in the day. 409fantic has an original 61 409 but its a Fleetmaster. To answer your question, I haven't. There is an effort to have a display of at least one example of every year 409 from 61 to 65 at the Muscle Car & Corvette show in Chicago this fall, the cars must be real factory built 409 cars to qualify. So far as I know they have not located an original 61 409. There is supposed to be a SS 409 in a collection in Pa. I have seen the car and it is an original SS but I question the motor.
I really don't know how you tell, the 61's didn't have the vin stamped in the block so short of original paperwork and even that can be questionable. My car could probably pass for one because all the casting and assembly dates align with the build date of the car but I know it isn't and I would never try to pass it off as one.
The thing that bothers me is when I sell the car you can bet that the next time it is sold it will be the most original one in the world.
 

Mearl

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 6
At the late great Chevy show in Tulsa several years ago there was a guy called Ugly John who had one of each year 409 car but even his 61 was a clone.
 

Blk61409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
Tommy, I did have a 61 409 black Impala years ago, but the car was originally a 348 3x2 solid lifter 4 speed car. I put the 409 2x4's in it and ran the O/SS class as well as A/S and B/FX because Chevy came out with the 2x4's at the end of the 61 production run.

I'm with you, when the current car we are building is finished and if I sell it some day, the next owner will probably sell it as an absolute positive factory everything car. Having said that, you are the only guy that has had a real 61'409'Impala!!!
 

63409

Well Known Member
Has Phil Reed seen any? Unless the car has a well known history there is no real proof ,
 

Phalen409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 6
I think Pat said he had one back in the day. 409fantic has an original 61 409 but its a Fleetmaster. To answer your question, I haven't. There is an effort to have a display of at least one example of every year 409 from 61 to 65 at the Muscle Car & Corvette show in Chicago this fall, the cars must be real factory built 409 cars to qualify. So far as I know they have not located an original 61 409. There is supposed to be a SS 409 in a collection in Pa. I have seen the car and it is an original SS but I question the motor.
I really don't know how you tell, the 61's didn't have the vin stamped in the block so short of original paperwork and even that can be questionable. My car could probably pass for one because all the casting and assembly dates align with the build date of the car but I know it isn't and I would never try to pass it off as one.
The thing that bothers me is when I sell the car you can bet that the next time it is sold it will be the most original one in the world.

You can sell it to me and I'll tell the truth!!!
:brow
 

Blk61409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
I thought I would share a couple of photos that might be of interest. I had this 61 Fleetmaster that was a 6cyl and I stuffed a 409 with Z-11 heads in it, Pontiac 4:88, etc, actually it was Frank Sanders stuff off his 62 Bubbletop.
A big problem I had was, if you can look closely at the photo of the car you can see a puddle of water under the car. Seems the great set up at the time was hollow stemmed intake valves from Holman Moody, lighter etc. yes, bad idea to put ford parts in a Z-11 set up. Yep, I still have to this day a piece of the valve head. Anyway first burnout the engine began to load up, I thought!!! Wrong, it was running bad because I had popped one of the ford intake valve heads off. Being in the staging lanes it was really noisy, I noticed the tach slowing down. What's the first thing we do, clean out the fuel build up of course!!! So I attempted to "clean it out". Bad move, next thing, I opened the door, engine died and I looked down to see water running out of the headers!!!
The story continues of course and I will finish it after I post some photos.

image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
 

Blk61409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
The rest of the story.
I towed the car home, pulled the engine apart, cracked the block and had to sleeve it, had to weld the Z-11 head. I was able to get the head welded, but the machine shop did not have time to put in a sleeve. I needed it quickly because a big race was coming up at Green Valley the next weekend. So, since I had no block I borrowed a short block from a friend that had his setting in his garage. I picked it up and put my heads on after getting rid of anything Ford related!!! Installed cam and lifters, etc, , carefully replaced the intake back on the heads, had to double gasket the valley cover and intake because the head required surfacing, (I had carefully placed it off to one side to be careful with it).
This is where it gets good. I fired it up. Ran very well, respond exceptionally well for a few minutes when all of a sudden it began to slow down!!!! What! Not again! Guess what, another ford valve stuck in a piston that came apart and the rod took out a cylinder!!! How was this possible since I had put Chevy valves back in. Welllllll, seems when I dropped the first valve I was not smart enough to look for all of it. One piece, it appeared had launched itself up into the intake and set inside under one of the carbs. It reappeared on the other side when it vibrated down an intake runner and destroyed the short block I had just borrowed!!!
Well my friend was none too happy, I had to sell a bunch of stuff to pay him back. Still talks to me to this day, maybe he has forgotten, but I still have the valve.
Bad memory!!
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
WOW Pat!! Brian's white '61 Biscayne with Z11 parts must be like de ja vue (sp?) for you!! Did you ever get to make any clean passes with that car? If so, what did it run?



Also noticed the unpainted heads and it made me think of Carmine's 409 he's just finishing where he cleared the bare heads and put them on the orange block just because he likes the look.
 

Blk61409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
I bought that 61 from behind a used car lot for either $50 or $100. The 6cyl was junk,

As for the unpainted heads, it was just at a race car and I did not care what it looked like.
And no, after 2 engines and lots of pieces of Ford valves all over the place, I sold everything without ever having made a pass!!
 

troublemaker427

Well Known Member
Hey even us Ford guys don't like those sodium filled hollow stem valves!!! They have ruined more than a few 427 Fords. Those valves weren't one of Ford's "Better Ideas"... I've actually heard of the heads popping off when the engine wasn't even running.

That is a very cool '61 Biscayne, even with the water leak...LOL

That would be a very cool car to recreate today, with stainless valves, of course....
 

Blk61409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
Tomorrow I will post a photo of the Ford valve head!!!

I really don't know why for about 50 years I have kept this stupid piece of a valve, only to say that friendship is really stronger than stupidity. Yes, my friend a I still talk, hopefully he has forgotten, I certainly have not!!
 
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