A/FX

George Klass

Well Known Member
Dave, I never heard anything about "NHRA authorization" as to which engine could be used in which car. I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying I never heard about it. I was at Pomona for the '62 NHRA Winternats (I live in L.A.) and watched what was going on, and talked to most of the F/X racers. I never heard about any authorization, and there is nothing mentioned about it in the NHRA Rulebook for 1962 (I have every NHRA Rulebook from 1958 through 1965). If NHRA permitted a 413-inch engine to be mounted in a Dodge Lancer (wheelbase 106.5"), why would they not have permitted a 409-inch engine to be mounted in a Chevy II (wheelbase 110")? However, I'm always willing to learn...
 

dm62409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 12
I think the idea of the cars not being accepted by NHRA probably came after the racing ban of early 1963 (at the time of the Daytona500). Chevy stopped building the RPO Z-11 Impalas, and stopped all support of racing. Which still doesn't answer why none were built before that in 62. It seems that if cars were built for racing outside of the manufacturer,( like Dearborn Steel Tube) assembling the Thunderbolts, and whoever assembled the Dodge Lancer, as long as the factory authorized these builds, NHRA accepted them . Chevy didn't authorize any racing, so no acceptance from NHRA. I don't want to imply what I write here as absolute facts, just an opinion from bits and pieces of information aquirred over the years. Lots of gray area here.
 

George Klass

Well Known Member
That may all be true, Dave, but it is news to me. The Dodge Lancer (the Golden Lancer) was not a factory built car, it was assemble out of factory available parts by Dragmaster (and they may have been given the parts for free by Dodge), but anyone could build one of their own if they wished.

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The rules were quite specific. From the '62 NHRA Ruelbook: "The Factory Experimental class is for stock automobiles that use manufacturers' optional equipment announced on or after June 1, 1961; optional equipment that is not necessarily factory assembly-line installed and/or show room sales available."

Under ENGINES for the F/X class in '62 it states: "Any engine or options listed by the automobile manufacturer for the engine model used are accepted by the NHRA Technical Board."

Remember, the engines and the cars had to be legal (NHRA approved) vehicles. The Chevy II was obviously an approved vehicle for the F/X class, Dyno Don won his class in one of them. The engines had to be legal and approved for the Stock Class. The Dodge Lancer was a factory produced vehicle, manufactured in enough quantity exceeding 500 units. The 413" Dodge wedge was a Super Stock legal engine, as was the transmission. The name of this class was actually "mix and match", install a bigger engine in a smaller, lighter car, which is what Dragmaster did. It's also what Hayden Proffitt did. The fact that NHRA accepted a Pontiac compact should tell us that they would have also accepted the Chevy II (both GM vehicles). It too was produced in enough quantity and the 409 engine was a legal Super Stock engine.

Let's look at the specs of each car.
'62 Dodge Lancer - Wheelbase = 106.5", Overall Length = 188.8", Width = 72.3", Height = 55.7"
'62 Pont. Tempest - Wheelbase = 112", Overall Length = 194.3", Width = 72.2", Height = 54"
'62 Chevy II - Wheelbase - 110", Overall Length = 183", Width = 69.9", Height = 55"

All these compacts were in the same basic "compact class of vehicles", all were NHRA legal, and all the engines (Chevy 409, Pontiac 421, and Dodge/Plymouth 413) were NHRA approved for Super Stock competition. I just am having a hard time, Dave, in believing that NHRA would have approved of the Tempest and the Lancer and not the Chevy II. In 1962, the 413 was NEVER approved as an optional engine for the Lancer, and Pontiac NEVER approved of the 421 as an optional engine for the Tempest. These were never factory optional engines for either vehicles. It just doesn't make sense that NHRA would have approved non-optional engines for some vehicles but not for others.

But like I said before, I'm willing to be wrong about all of this. The NHRA has done many, many funky things in the past (and still do in fact). There was plenty of pissing and moaning at the '62 Winternationals from many of the racers, guys showing up with Z-11's prepared to run in the S/S class and then being told that they couldn't run in that class and had to run in a new class (a one time class that was created on the spot by NHRA) called "Limited Production Class". In thinking back on this whole thing (I was 23 years old at the time), it almost seems to me that the big name Chevy S/S racers decided to boycott NHRA's F/X class, and after the NHRA Nationals over Labor Day in '62, many of them dumped their Chevy's and went with other manufacturers, like Dodge/Plymouth and Mercury. Interesting times, that's for sure...
 

George Klass

Well Known Member
Does anyone remember seeing a Chevelle running in the F/X class at a NHRA National Event? I can't and yet, I think there were quite a few that were built to be legal NHRA F/X cars, but the lure of Match Racing and the easy money took precedence. Here are some cars that would probably have fit the class, cars that had the stock wheelbase and OEM front suspension when original built.

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George Klass

Well Known Member
Isn't Wally Bell a member of this site? Maybe he could shed some light on this.

That would be great, Dave.

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If I remember correctly, this Falcon ran in at least one NHRA National Event in A/FX, it was powered by a 427 Wedge engine and was not a factory built car.

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This Falcon did too I believe

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I seem to remember this Falcon at a NHRA National Event in A/FX in Detroit.

One of the things to keep in mind is that until the 1961 NHRA Winternationals, there was only one NHRA National Event a year (known as the "Nationals"). I think that by '63 or '64, there were only a few more. Even though NHRA National Events were important, there were only a few a year. A racer with a F/X type car could get more magazine coverage and more money running in the Match Racing Circuit. I suspect there were more cars (of all makes) that could have raced in the F/X class at NHRA events, and just chose to not attend them, probably because of the Factory Teams from Dodge/Plymouth and the SOHC Comets and Mustangs...
 

George Klass

Well Known Member
I seem to remember that the original "Retribution" was wrecked, and I believe it was 409 powered, not Z-11 powered. I did see the "Retribution II" with the 427 engine up close and I'm sure that the 13-inch engine set-back would have kept it out of NHRA's A/FX class.

The thing is, the Factory Experimental class was not a class that NHRA wanted to have in the first place. They were kind of forced into it by the factories, who offered non-production parts over the counter to select (or few) customers. This started in the middle of '61 with the O/SS class at the NHRA Nationals, muddied up the water in '62 at the NHRA Nationals (after the F/X class was initiated) with optional performance parts (offered by GM primarily in S/S) and then culminated in '63 at the NHRA Winternationals with the L/P (Limited Production) class. If it weren't for the fact that the Super Stockers were so popular with the fans, NHRA would have just said "No", you can't run any of that stuff, which they basically said in '63 by requiring a higher "minimum production" number. The Z-11 Chevy and the "swiss cheese" Pontiacs were the two brands that were caught in the middle, as those two vehicles were originally produced to run in S/S and not F/X, but got flagged because of the "minimum production" clause in the NHRA rulebook. Of course, GM's decision to back out of racing didn't help the situation, either.
 

409envy

Well Known Member
I found a couple of additional pictures of Retribution II in the Larry Davis book "Quarter-Mile Muscle" the caption confirms that he did run a z11 engine in the red version of this car. George, did he wreck the black car and then rebuild with this version? Just thought I would add some more documentation.
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409envy

Well Known Member
I seem to remember that he crashed the first Chevy II, but can't recall if it was painted black or red. The funny thing is that I have seen photos of "Retribution II" in both red and black...

Here is a pic of Retribution II in black. Note the special hand made rear bumper... These were a carryover item from the Bill Thomas road racing program that used Corvette running gear on the Nova's. I would love to get my hands on one of those!!!

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George Klass

Well Known Member
Jim Kirby was in the process of purchasing DH’s Retribution Chevy II when it was crashed. I don’t know where the crash occured but Dick stepped up with another car to deliver to Jim!

So, the question is, was there ever a "Retribution" to begin with, before there was a "Retribution II"? I saw one of these cars up close, and I believe it was black, but I never noticed the car name, only that it was Dick Harell's Chevy II...
 

George Klass

Well Known Member
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Getting back to a question that we were discussing earlier, which was, "was the Chevy II eligible to run in A/FX with a W engine?" So far, I have not seen any definitive evidence that it would not have been allowed to race by NHRA. I know for a fact that Phil Bonner's Falcon ran at Pomona in A/FX, I was there. This car was powered by the 427 Wedge engine, and was very stock, body wise, including having roll-up glass windows all around. The Falcon was in a similar class of production cars as the Chevy II. Wheelbase on the Falcon was 109.5" (Chevy II was 110"). Over all length of the Falcon was 181.6" (Chevy II was 183"). And of course we know for sure that the Chevy II ran with the 360 HP small block engine in B/FX, and most likely could have also run in C/FX with a lessor powered small block engine if anyone chose to run one. I think it just came down to the reality that none of the Chevy racers at the time chose to run a 409-427 W engine in the Factory Experimental class. I know for a fact that several W engined Chevy II's and also several Chevelle's were built to legally race in the F/X class, had their owners chosen to do so. So, why didn't we see any Chevy II's competing in A/FX? I think there were three reasons.

First, the only place where there was any legal F/X racing was at NHRA National Events. In 1962, there were only two National Events, and maybe only three in 1963 (if I remember correctly). Why build a car on your own dime to race only twice or three times a year? There was almost no money to be made racing at NHRA, even if you won. Secondly, if you did build a car to race with your own time and money (GM was out of racing), why not be able to "hop it up" (the car and the engine) and just go match racing, which you could do almost any weekend, somewhere in the country? For a Chevy S/S racer at the time, there was no "factory" to curry favors for, the "factory" was out of racing. And finally, "Match Racing" was where it was at. You could make some money and race at your convenience, and there was no "rulebook" that you had to live by. There was a lot more attention from the media directed at the match race circuit than at NHRA's F/X class. Even the factory sponsored F/X racers from Ford and Dodge/Plymouth could see that, and many modified their cars from legal F/X cars into match race cars (illegal to race in F/X) with not only the factory's permission, but with their blessings.

In looking back, GM missed a bet with their "racing ban". It was a poor decision in my opinion (I know about the politics of the situation and their concerns about congress, etc.). It was a mistake on their part and you know what, for all practical purposes they never did get back into supporting drag racing. They let it all slip away. All that effort by GM to turn Pontiac into more of a performance car, and then to bow out of the performance field. And now there is no more Pontiac. The great Chevy S/S racers were just abandoned with no factory support and soon went with Ford, Mercury or Dodge/Plymouth.

I have always felt that there are consequences for the decisions we make, some good and some bad. I'm no historian and I have no facts to back this up, but GM's decision to bail out of racing in '63 may have been one of the reasons that 44 years later they needed a government hand out just to stay in business...
 
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