air ride/caster issues....any ideas?

[w ogden]

Well fellas, after a long hiatus and two other car builds, I am now getting the 64 Biscayne back on the front burner. Been a long project (12 years)! and not without it's issues for sure.
So here is one issue and I hope some of you guys have seen all this before. We installed an Air Ride Tech system years ago before their new shock wave system arrived on the scene. Trying to set the ride height to where the factory would have had the car has only left the suspension extremely stiff with no give. So we lowered the air pressure down to 85 in the front and 50 in the back and the car rides a bit better but no where near what we had expected after hearing all the raves about air ride systems. Trying to line the front up has been a bit of a nightmare. Can't get enough caster. We are at 2 3/4 p now and the car steers like a go kart with no road feel at all. At this point it is not worth driving the car.
Looking for ideas to solve the caster issue. Are there any suppliers that make upper control arms with built in caster like in the race items for the track folks? If others have had this issue, how have you dealt with it?
Any suggestions as to the suitable air pressure for the bags? Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[ken smith]

Classic Industries is advertising upper control arm shafts with "built-in " 2 degrees caster ( pos )
I just ordered a set thru "E---" About $89 delivered. Hope this helps...

 

[Jim Sullivan]

I don't know anything about the air ride suspension, but what steering gear and pump are you using? 2 3/4 degrees positive caster isn't too bad for our cars. I'd like to see 3-5 degrees, but that's pretty hard to get unless you go after market control arms and even then I don't know if you can get the caster that positive. I tend to lean toward too much pump pressure as being a cause of loose feeling steering but every set up is different. JMO

 

[models916]

 

[jim_ss409]

That Global West control arm sounds good.

 

[1958 delivery]

90/100psi front and 50 rear is about normal for most large cars. Do you have drop spindles in addition to the bags? If so, you need to lose the drop spindles as they will make it near impossible to raise the car without using excessive pressure (front). Most installing air bags want to keep the car in a very low stance so raising to an OEM height is not usually done and will require high pressure to do so. Some suspensions are more forgiving then others, I bagged a Riviera that would drive wonderfully at any height, had a Mustang II suspension on a early pick up that was a nightmare at any height other then where it had been adjusted at. Sounds like yours falls into the latter . The car should ride well at 80/90 psi front, set the alignment at that point. You did install shocks up front?

 

[w ogden]

Have limited access here in rural vt so I am slow to respond at times. (slower than I would like)
Some facts to clear up the spec.....This is an early Air Ride aka Ride Tech system with Firestone convoluted bags on all four corners. All new suspension parts (no dropped spindles) including Energy Suspension bushings but currently with oem control arms. All replacement parts were Moog and ther are new shocks at all corners.
I am running 90 front 50 rear and the car seems to ride strangely especially over bumps. Appears to have a bit more body roll,dip and dive than I would have expected with bags. I have not moved the air pressure up as I had started at 100 in the front and the car had little movement or flex. 'way too stiff and rode the same way.
I had converted from manual steer to a 605 conversion with a GM bottle neck pump from GM. Is there a way to adjust the pressure on the old pumps?
At the current bag pressure the lower a arms are level with the ground, a bit lower than I remember the stock spring set up to be. Wonder how much the Global West really allows for positive set back. Guess I had better call their tech line.
Additionally, might be another issue that we are running a wide 17 inch tire. I wonder if changing back to a standard size might help a bit.

 

[w ogden]

Have limited access here in rural vt so I am slow to respond at times. (slower than I would like)
Some facts to clear up the spec.....This is an early Air Ride aka Ride Tech system with Firestone convoluted bags on all four corners. All new suspension parts (no dropped spindles) including Energy Suspension bushings but currently with oem control arms. All replacement parts were Moog and ther are new shocks at all corners.
I am running 90 front 50 rear and the car seems to ride strangely especially over bumps. Appears to have a bit more body roll,dip and dive than I would have expected with bags. I have not moved the air pressure up as I had started at 100 in the front and the car had little movement or flex. 'way too stiff and rode the same way.
I had converted from manual steer to a 605 conversion with a GM bottle neck pump from GM. Is there a way to adjust the pressure on the old pumps?
At the current bag pressure the lower a arms are level with the ground, a bit lower than I remember the stock spring set up to be. Wonder how much the Global West really allows for positive set back. Guess I had better call their tech line.
Additionally, might be another issue that we are running a wide 17 inch tire. I wonder if changing back to a standard size might help a bit.

 

[1958 delivery]

Most installers around here, and there are a lot of them, buy individual components as opposed to "air ride" kits. The install is more suited to the individual installation as opposed to a one size fits many approach. A typical install on an Impala would have 9" bags in front and the large-tall sleeve type in the rear. Having more "up and down" is important, 9" is a good up-down range. I mentioned the Riviera I had, that had 9" range up front and much more in rear, maybe 11-12". I mention this to check if you are using 6" bags, which are too small. I'm not sure what you are looking for in ride quality and such, I want a bagged car to lay on the ground then come up a few inches to drive it. If I wanted a car for longer hauls I would not bag it.

 

[w ogden]

Mike, not sure, as it has been too many years, on the size of the bags. Same bag on all four corners. I will try to dig up my packing list. To clarify....when you state 9 inches is good, are you speaking of 9 inch inflated or deflated? I will be speaking with Ride Tech today and will inquire about the bags. The goal for the installation was to be able to get a lower comfortable ride. Rarely drop the car to the ground as shown in my avatar. And I forgot to mention earlier that I have roll bars front and rear also. Tried to do everything to get a lower great ride but that is not the result to date.

 

[threeimpalas]

Call Ride Tech. You should not be having any issues with the kit if it was installed properly. I've installed a few of their kits, including one on a '59, and have had no issues with the components.

 

[1958 delivery]

There are 6" and 9" bags (diameter) 6" bags are too small for the front unless you have a very light car. Same bags all around=not a good thing as rears have to be much taller which is why the sleeve type is used in rear.

 

[threeimpalas]

There are 6" and 9" bags (diameter) 6" bags are too small for the front unless you have a very light car. Same bags all around=not a good thing as rears have to be much taller which is why the sleeve type is used in rear.

Due to the location of the spring on the control arm, the X-frame cars use a double convoluted bag in the rear. Less extension and more load capacity are required on suspensions that place the spring between the axle's axis of rotation and the axle. The double convoluted bags have higher load capacities than the sleeve type.

Ride Tech uses the larger diameter double convoluted bags in both front and rear.

 

[1958 delivery]

Due to the location of the spring on the control arm, the X-frame cars use a double convoluted bag in the rear. Less extension and more load capacity are required on suspensions that place the spring between the axle's axis of rotation and the axle. The double convoluted bags have higher load capacities than the sleeve type.

Ride Tech uses the larger diameter double convoluted bags in both front and rear.

Which may have something to do with the guys over here don't use the rear stock spring location, they design their own bracket and relocate the location of the spring for desired results. However I don't know which bag they use on a 58-64 Chevy in the rear as I haven't had an X frame car done but both my Riviera and pick up were done with the tall sleeve type bag. The Buick rode fantastic, the truck not so much.

 

[w ogden]

Talked with Ride Tech yesterday. Our bags are the larger convoluted bags on all 4 corners. They do not offer a control arm for the 64 that will allow more caster. This car was a 6 cyl with the alum. power gld so it would seem that the saddle has not moved as is the case he says with the larger v8's over time. Still puzzled as his 62 demo car with their system has near 5 degrees of caster and handles very nice on the road and track. I imagine that is with their newer products including the shock wave bags. I am going to drop the car down as far as it will go and then reverse it to get the overall travel. Will split that in half to determine the normal ride height and compare that with where it is riding now. RT wants me to call them back after that and we will see where we go from there.

Anyone know if there is an adjustment to lower the ps pressure on that bottle neck pump?

 

[1958 delivery]

There are upper tubular arms for additional caster, maybe not made by them, there are also offset upper cross shafts available. You say you have the "larger" bags, what diameter are they?
You can change the pressure by shimming the valve in the pump. I think putting shims under the spring increases the pressure, I believe a restrictor is used to lower pressure. There are plenty of write ups on this if you google it.

 

[threeimpalas]

Are you certain you have the upper arms installed on the correct sides and not swapped? That would goof up the caster.

Ride Tech uses the Firestone 224 air springs. They're 8" diameter.
http://www.ridetech.com/store/air-spring-224-double-convoluted.html

 

[w ogden]

Checking with RT I found that they still offer the 6873 bag for their Cool Ride system for the 58-64's. The spec on these is 8 inch inflated diameter, 3 inch minimum and 5-5 1/2 at ride height. Chad has indicated that the old shocks provided in the kit are not the best alternative for a good ride. They now offer an upgraded shock but there wasn't much of a spec on them to determine what they provide.
I see Borgenson has a pressure reducing part available for the pump....I will look into that.

As for the control arms being reversed...anything is possible! I had stamped them l and r way back when I rebuilt them with the Energy Suspension bushings but at this point who knows. How would one tell which is left and right?

Fighting a flu like bug this week so I am house bound until I get by this crap. Hope to be back in the shop this weekend.

 

[blkblk63ss]

Walt , found this in search for over sensitive steering. Mine is 600 delphi ,and am thinking to reduce pressure to have more feel to steering as it seem's to quick.Speedway and Borgson sells a pressure valve in different sizes for the Saginaw pump. Also has an adjustable external just like for the brake bias.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Heidts-PS-101-Adjustable-Power-Steering-Valve,14895.html
http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/product.php?productid=1684&cat=0&page=1

 

[1961 Bubble Boy]

Keep in mind by design the caster is 0 on these cars. Expecting to adjust it to 5 degrees is unrealistic with a stock setup.