Building a 409

[DennisK]

Hi, My name is Dennis Krueger and I'm new to this site. I'm going to build a 409 for my '63 Belair. I have a truck block, 656, 333 heads and a muncie 4 speed. This is the first time that I've tried to build a 409. I have a '30 Fourd sedan with a stock 250hp 348 in it. I would like to know how big of valves and cam I sould use. The car
is mainly for the street but, it will be raced. I have 3 intakes, 360, 400 and a 425 with matching carbs. Is there a better set-up than one of these? I've viewed this site many times, it's the best I've ever seen!

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Welcome aboard!

Greetings, Dennis!

Seems you're already a bit of an experienced "W" head having that 348 in a Ford Hot Rod . Good taste!

Assuming you are going with the "333" heads on that 409 block, you are limited to using either stock "low performance" GM cast iron intakes or aftermarket intakes, which offer several options. The higher horse original GM intakes (mostly made of aluminum as far as I know) fit best with the 690 and 583 heads. You can get plenty of flow (and torque!) out of those 333 heads you have. I have a set and am thinking of openning up the intakes (to 2.19") and the exhaust valves (to 1.74"), and mounting a 3x2 carb setup on top. I like multiple carbs . You can also get aftermarket multiple carb intakes for these type of heads, 2x4 setups as well as 4x2 setups. Wouldn't that look special with four two barrel Rochesters on it?

I'm sure others will have plenty of suggestions and recommendations for you as you go down the path. Plenty of pooled talent in this group! You ask the questions, several opinions and experiences follow, then you get to make the final decisions. Team effort, I say! The only catch is you have to keep us informed and ocassionally post pictures so we can drool over your project .

Good luck with your decisions, they will look good in that '63!

Cheers,
TomK

 

[DennisK]

Thanks TomK for the input. I've been thinking about those big valves. Besides machine work do I need anything special for the truck heads? What about springs? One of my intakes is for the small port 360 hp. But, I think something like the Offenhauser 2X4 set-up would look cooler and maybe run better. And I just don't know about a cam.

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Aha!

Dennis: By "360" do you perhaps mean "340" as in the horse power rating of the somewhat "detuned" passenger car offering for 1963 and 1964? That one used the "817" heads, and a cast iron intake. The 360 horse heads were rare ones indeed, made for the first offerings of the 409 back in 1961. Those would be quite rare indeed. If you have a cast iron intake #3830831 that would be the one from 1963 that was part of the 340 horse setup. You can put this intake on those "333" heads.

There are several members who are contemplating or have already done similar combinations using these heads and various intakes. They have lots to offer in terms of commentary and experience. No one wants to tell you what to do, but we sure can give you some starting points .

Best,
TomK

 

[raymar58409]

DennisK, Careful with that intake size, I believe Aubrey recommends only 2.060 on the intakes for the 333 heads unless you're drilling for water. There are numerous builders on here that I'm sure will be jumping in here to help.
Ray

 

[jim_ss409]

The 400 and 425hp manifolds will bolt on but the ports are bigger so they don't match up well. The Offenhauser dual quad manifold fits the smaller heads. If you've got to get pistons I think it's worthwhile to get a set that will accommodate the slightly longer,and stronger, big block rods. In fact if I were building a stock stroke 409 I'd look into using pistons designed for a 4" stroke - big block rod setup because apparently those are the lightest pistons. But that would require extra long rods so it might not be worth the trouble. I think you loose pretty close to one full point of compression when you use both the truck block and heads so if it was me I'd go with a piston with about 10 1/2 to 11 1/2 to 1 compression so that you actually end up with 9 1/2 to 10 1/2. I think Aubrey would be a good guy to call about pistons he's also got a lot of different camshafts available. http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/

 

[DennisK]

Thanks for the link Jim. Looks like that guy realy knows these engines and is a good source for parts. I have $$$ to build a good motor but not enough to experiment with diferent combinations. It needs to be right the first time. I don't know anyone around here running a "W" motor, all my buddys are the bule oval varitey and I need something to keep up with them.

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Thank you for the reference, Jim ...

Dennis, there are a number of vendors of engine parts for our W blocks... and DOZENS of guys here who know them.

With valves, yes, the 333 head would be limited to 2.06"... which is fine because the port won't keep up to bigger valves. Exhaust can also be stepped up to 1.72/1.73".

 

[DennisK]

Well guys the moment of truth is here. The truck engine is built, in the car and ready for the initial start up. I'll give it a go this weekend, I have my fingers crossed. I read most all the posts and taken most of the advice now we'll see. The engine is .008 over 11.5 cr, big block H beam rods, Isky 296 cam with 2.06 and 1.72 valves.

 

[Dond409]

cam break in

I hope you have read all the posts on breaking in the cam. It can not be stressed enough. Make sure you pre oil the engine. Use a good quality racing oil. Over fill the motor by at least a quart. Some go 2 quarts. Any other questions before start up just ask.

 

[region rat]

15W40 deisel oil is suppoed to be good for break in. It has a lot of additves regular oil no longer has. EOS from GM is a good thing to add also. Bob