Cloyes timing set

[409hotrod49merc]

Just read some responses on the last post....scares me !!! "Eating the block " just installed a cloyes timing set for my comp flat tappet cam.....going to use a comp#200 cam buttom...Do I need to put the brakes on ?????
Thanks, Steve

 

[Don Jacks]

I,personally,would not take that chance.Most flat tappet cams are ground with a slight taper whose purpose is to hold the cam in a position that causes the cam gear to ride against the block while running.A nearly stock cam,with the needed low pressure valve springs might get by,but a more performance grind ,with the necessary higher rate valve springs will put more pressure on the area between the cam gear and block.With hard,and getting harder to find blocks,it simply isnt worth the risk too me.

 

[Ishiftem]

Here is some reading for ya. http://www.348-409.com/forum/index.php?threads/confession.12712/

 

[409hotrod49merc]

I,personally,would not take that chance.Most flat tappet cams are ground with a slight taper whose purpose is to hold the cam in a position that causes the cam gear to ride against the block while running.A nearly stock cam,with the needed low pressure valve springs might get by,but a more performance grind ,with the necessary higher rate valve springs will put more pressure on the area between the cam gear and block.With hard,and getting harder to find blocks,it simply isnt worth the risk too me.

Thanks, Don
What do you thing about the S.A, double roller timing sets with the cast iron cam gear, if we ran a comp #201 thrust washer behind it ??? Thanks, Steve

 

[Don Jacks]

Either the cam gear,or the block will have to be machined for the spacer tohave clearence,and for the gears to line up properly.Your machine shop can easily modify the gear.I'd think that if the S.A. is indeed a cast iron part,the machine work would be unnecessary,but I've never used an S.A gear set-up,so I dont know about thier quality.That's why I recommended Bob Walla's parts.He's probally broken more of this stuff than I'll ever see,and knows what works.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

What Don said,,, If you use a .031 thrust washer, then the gear must be reduced the same. However, there is a misconception that the Cloyes cam timing gear is billet steel, it is not, it is iron. Ductile iron or hardened iron, but iron, not steel. I have used several S.A. gear sets and like them. The cam gears do not look as strong as the Cloyes but how strong is strong enough? I have a S.A. in my engine so I'm confident they are strong enough. The gearsets that Bob Walla sells are high quality and reasonably priced. I think the brand Bob sells has the captured torrington bearing so that saves the money of having the machine shop shaving a timing gear to accept a thrust washer. Lots of options and as far as I'm concerned they are all good as long as they are double true roller sets. FWIW, The S.A. and Cloyes use the same diamiter gears and same chain. It is possible to mix brands. I had a new S.A. gear set and needed a set for line honed block. Ordered the 9-133-5 Cloyes chain and all was well. 9-133-10 is the .010 oversize ( or undersized) depends on how you look at it.) chain, if the .005 is still too slack. Since the gears wear hardly any, it is easy to order chain only the next time around and save money. JMO

 

[Ishiftem]

Yep, that's what I did on the last build. Just put a new chain on.

 

[models916]

No point to the cam button. I will not push out.

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

As Models just said, flat tappet cam won't walk forward.... a cam button is a completely moot point here.
I have experienced this block wear to an extreme level, back when I first ran my Stocker. Had no wear plate or bearing behind the gear, and it wore the block pretty bad. Bear in mind, that was with over 200 pounds on the seat.
That is the ONLY time I've ever experienced the problem.
I now use a torrington bearing.
Anyhow, the engine in my wagon, that I just installed the new cam in, had no noticeable wear at all. About 65,000 miles in the block ( hi perf 409, that would have had 120 pounds dseat pressure for most of it's life ).
My new cam requires 130. I'm not worried.
I think this is just another issue that is caused by zinc-less engine oils.

 

[409hotrod49merc]

As Models just said, flat tappet cam won't walk forward.... a cam button is a completely moot point here.
I have experienced this block wear to an extreme level, back when I first ran my Stocker. Had no wear plate or bearing behind the gear, and it wore the block pretty bad. Bear in mind, that was with over 200 pounds on the seat.
That is the ONLY time I've ever experienced the problem.
I now use a torrington bearing.
Anyhow, the engine in my wagon, that I just installed the new cam in, had no noticeable wear at all. About 65,000 miles in the block ( hi perf 409, that would have had 120 pounds dseat pressure for most of it's life ).
My new cam requires 130. I'm not worried.
I think this is just another issue that is caused by zinc-less engine oils.

Thanks Guys,
Talked to Bob, this morning "What a nice guy", I believe we will go with his timing set with the torrington bearing... although my cloyes set is a s261t, and does state on the box, that the timing gear is cast iron......I'll just put in on the shelf... Thanks for all the great information... Steve.

 

[BSL409]

I noticed this little bit of ware on my 068 block and it only had 590 lift solid cam

 

[region rat]

Isky did some testing and if the lifter bores are not exactly right the cam can push out. The oil pump causes the cam to pull in. A builder told me that if the distributor is too low or too high it can affect which way the cam is pushed. I haven't seen evidence of that.

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Just a for the record, A few minutes ago, I finished installing the new cam in my engine, using a Cloyes timing set. 135 pounds seat spring pressure. The face was polished pretty good, but no appreciable wear.
better get going now... I have some strange intake manifold to install.

 

[skipxt4]

Not, to keep beating a dead horse. I also intend to use the Cloyes Billet True Speed Timing Set. The new number is now 9-3601X3. I sent an e-mail to Cloyes, yesterday, concerning the block wear issue's. I couldn't believe they responded, the same day, after 6 o'clock. Anyhow, this was their answer. "We do not feel, this to be an issue, on flat tappet cams. Cloyes is considering, changing the sprocket, to accommodate a bearing, just for customer, piece of mind. In the meantime, some users are having their sprockets machined themselves, and are using our 9-201 or 9-220 or 9-220B. (Mike)" A search, on their website, didn't recognize the part numbers. So my question is, which is better. The torrington bearing, or the wear plate? Thanks

 

[Fathead Racing]

The wear plate is better for the street driven car that expects to see high mileage compared to a race engine. In my opinion the wear plate is the best option for both race and street engines.

 

[Ishiftem]

I second the plate. The torrington bearing can fail and spread that stuff through the engine. I feel the less things that can fail in the engine the better.

 

[skipxt4]

Wear plate, it is. Thanks, for your opinions, Ray and Ishiftem.

 

[63 Biscayne]

Got my Cloyes steel gear back today, got 0.031 machined of the back and when I put the Comp 201 wear plate over the gear it hides the edge of the oïl grooves, should I get the machine shop to mill the grooves so oïl can get in behind easier?

 

[Don Jacks]

Yes

 

[LMBRJQ 60]

Got my Cloyes steel gear back today, got 0.031 machined of the back and when I put the Comp 201 wear plate over the gear it hides the edge of the oïl grooves, should I get the machine shop to mill the grooves so oïl can get in behind easier?

Would be good to see a pic of what you have found for future reference? are you able to take a pic of the interference/ coverage of the grooves?

Regards

Steve