Fuel lines and antifreeze

427John

Well Known Member
My experience with rev limiters on a street driven car with such a mild cam is that the driver forgets about it because they never get close to activating it,and if they ever do it scares the shit out of them.While the MSD definitely has its place,if your not running really high compression ratio or exotic fuel,your probably not going to notice much difference in power.I personally don't see it being worth the added expense and the effort necessary to make a sanitary installation in a mild application as you describe.But if you have your heart set on it MSD stuff is good quality and I've had good luck in the stuff I've run.Also if you decide to use it make sure to use the vibration mounts for the box.
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
My experience with rev limiters on a street driven car with such a mild cam is that the driver forgets about it because they never get close to activating it,and if they ever do it scares the shit out of them.While the MSD definitely has its place,if your not running really high compression ratio or exotic fuel,your probably not going to notice much difference in power.I personally don't see it being worth the added expense and the effort necessary to make a sanitary installation in a mild application as you describe.But if you have your heart set on it MSD stuff is good quality and I've had good luck in the stuff I've run.Also if you decide to use it make sure to use the vibration mounts for the box.


I have been kicking this around most of the day, and I think I am the same agreement, grab and inexpensive coil and let'er roll.
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Please explain how you had voltage on both sides of the coil.

Sure... now this is after I fixed my plug issue mind you.

So with the 64, and I am sure other years, but I have not worked on them...............

I have installed a external coil to feed my HEI, the coil is not in the cap on this set up, so, external.

With this set up, a new loom was installed in the engine bay, called the engine harness and they replace the exciter wire and or resistance wire with a pink wire that now goes to the distributor, or in this case the + side of the coil, there is a second pink wire in this loom, that goes from R terminal on the starter back up to the + side of the coil as well.. So you either get 12V at the + coil if your key is turned to the run position, for constant 12 V to keep the car running, now the purple wire that comes down to the starter and lands on the S terminal, gets 12V when you move from run, to crank (key all the way rotated to start position. So that is how I pick up or detect power from two sources, the R terminal drops out after cranking is done leaving just power on the + terminal from the keyed ignition, if that makes sense. The coil has a primary side and a secondary side, so two very different windings almost like a separation, they never see each other or get introduced to each other. so completely different power sources, then when you crank to start you have the voltage from the powering the positive side of the coil pink wire, that I will right or wrong call secondary power, 12+ in, out 12- to the distributor, but the resistance is gone in the coil windings and it never allows the 12 V to create the High out put voltage to the primary voltage of the coil, such as however many 1000's of volts, because the coil is defective, please let me know if I have something wrong here?

I did remove the coil and test it with my OHM meter and it was open with no continuity, BAD COIL in my thinking?
 

Don Jacks

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 3
Yes,I'd say bad coil here.As to the MSD,I'd use it,but Ive used on almost all of my cars that were street/strip used.Extra power,not necssarilly,extra spark,definately plus the rev limit protection.MY 9.1 408 would have never lasted 10 years without it.
 

55Brodie

Well Known Member
Sure... now this is after I fixed my plug issue mind you.

So with the 64, and I am sure other years, but I have not worked on them...............

I have installed a external coil to feed my HEI, the coil is not in the cap on this set up, so, external.

With this set up, a new loom was installed in the engine bay, called the engine harness and they replace the exciter wire and or resistance wire with a pink wire that now goes to the distributor, or in this case the + side of the coil, there is a second pink wire in this loom, that goes from R terminal on the starter back up to the + side of the coil as well.. So you either get 12V at the + coil if your key is turned to the run position, for constant 12 V to keep the car running, now the purple wire that comes down to the starter and lands on the S terminal, gets 12V when you move from run, to crank (key all the way rotated to start position. So that is how I pick up or detect power from two sources, the R terminal drops out after cranking is done leaving just power on the + terminal from the keyed ignition, if that makes sense. The coil has a primary side and a secondary side, so two very different windings almost like a separation, they never see each other or get introduced to each other. so completely different power sources, then when you crank to start you have the voltage from the powering the positive side of the coil pink wire, that I will right or wrong call secondary power, 12+ in, out 12- to the distributor, but the resistance is gone in the coil windings and it never allows the 12 V to create the High out put voltage to the primary voltage of the coil, such as however many 1000's of volts, because the coil is defective, please let me know if I have something wrong here?

I did remove the coil and test it with my OHM meter and it was open with no continuity, BAD COIL in my thinking?
Thanks for the clarification. I read your OP to mean you read voltage on the + and - coil terminals. It does sound like your coil is toast.
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
I got home and had the new coil, put it in, tried to fire, but because of all the cranking with no fire theree is some built up fuel in there, I ran it enough to burn that off, straight headers, pretty loud for the neighbors, lol so I barley got it warm, very, very unstable tomorrow in the light I am going to crank up the idle, until it will run on its own (rough) then try to set timing, then reset idle to 700-750 after warmed up, then try to dial in the air/fuel stuff, that should get it somewhat stable, she sounded good though.
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Guys tomorrow I am going to get this thing to run a little smoother, actually a lot smother or at least keep it running for extended period of time.

I encourage input here, I am not sure if small block technology works for a 409/340 but please feel free to jump in here and give your advice please.

So do I need to set the initial timing, 10-12 Degrees BTDC, with the full manifold port vacuum advance hose disconnected and plugged at the manifold?
Trying to figure out if the chicken or the egg comes in what order , set my initial idle at 750 to keep it running, then set base timing 10-12BTDC then adjust fuel/air or is my game plan all messed up, when do I set the total timing and is that with the , I just need a good game plan to get the bugs worked out on the performance side?
 

Don Jacks

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 3
Get the tiiming up first.Start engine on the fast isle step,vacuum line off,bring the engine speed to 3,000 set timing to 34 degrees btdc,,bring engine to idle check and note initial timing reading,hook up vacuum advance,reset idle speed adjust mixture screws,drive it like you stole it.
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
So busy, busy day........... I got things dialed in pretty close, spoke to Don on the phone a few times for old school guidance lol, but very thankful.

Got it fired up, found a few radiator leaks, fixed, got the idle up to 3000 set the advance at 34 degrees, with dial back timing light, plugged Vacuum advance back in to manifold pressure, dropped the RPM's to about 750, I think I like the Cam sound at 700 better, remains to be determined?

These were all coached to me by Don, but hey.........I learned it, not much different then small blocks, but a little....

re-checked idle, reset to 750, it had climbed a bit, Then we(Don) wanted to check vacuum to the vacuum advance, installed a vacuum tee and port, measured 10 " Vacuum, bumped the timing up, got it in the 12 ish range, adjusted air fuel, readjusted idle, re adjusted timing, back and forth a million times, dialing it in, settled on 750 RPM, 14.8" vacuum at a 750 idle and very smooth, very responsive to the throttle, that's where I am going to leave it for the time being, went through the gears , its up on jack stands, caught all 4 gears (Muncie M21) seemed smooth, need to figure out how to properly adjust the clutch, clutch spring broke, Z Bar to Body spring, new one on the way from Show Cars.

Its moving under its own power which is where I wanted to be coming into snow season, I can do my little things now through the winter and have it ready to roll in the spring, thanks to all and big shout out to Don, thank you.
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Any good clutch guys in here??? I tried to move it around the drive today and of course the engine on the run stand worked well, and now in the car the car is running decent, but I have the M21 Muncie, picked up at a discount, but never installed in my car before, in fact I do not know what the original set up was, I did check linkages and so forth and it was shifting well, now fast forward to the actual install in the car and it is fine, but the M21 is a close shift pattern I understand? I think? Before the engine was installed the shifter worked great IMO, but now with the G-force clutch installed its tight and awkward, definitely has some issues to work out.

So my clutch, Z bar is probably no different than anyone else's, and yes they were added, they are not factory installed, (PG Conversion) but all OEM parts.

My spring from the bottom of the Z bar is in place, but I noticed the top spring from Z bar to body, even though it was brand new has snapped in two, I am guessing I done that trying to mash the clutch in., New one on the way.

But when I try to push in on the clutch to slip into gear, I have to press it all the way to the floorboard and then it is still not fully disengaging the clutch, I am assuming that's an adjustment (Clueless on that adjustment/procedure) Do I have to wait to get the other spring into play/action before I can try to adjust it or can I do anything now? I am trying to drive it like 8 blocks away to the exhaust shop, but, I may have to wait for this broken spring to arrive, is there a technic that would be easy to follow for, which adjustment first and so on?
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
I had the good sense to take a lot of pictures when I was assembling it, so I have all the numbers and casting numbers etc. it has the Hurst competition plus shifter, Fly wheel GM P/N 3789733, Casting Number 3851325, M21 Close ratio, born date late 64,
3851325 1964-’65Patent Pending, 7/8-inch Countershaft Bore used mostly in 1964 Large Input Bearing.
3846429 1963-’65Thick Web Tail shaft, Driver-Side-Mounted Speedometer, 27 Spline Output
1963-’70 M21 One Groove 10 spline input 26 spline Output tooth splines 27 Spline Output shaft Splines

CenterForce Dual Friction clutch

I don't think this has anything to do with clutch adjustment, but some guys like to know what I am using or working with.

I really was excited by the whole " Close Ration thing" but it seems very tight/close ration compared to some of my other cars, different years/makes, not really comparable.
 
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Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Got a pic of thas t broken spring? Another member here as been going through clutch springs like M&M's.

I will take one tomorrow afternoon when I get home from work, its still setting there broken on the Z Bar, I just ordered another one from Show Cars, same place the original came from, I hope its not a cheap reproduction problem, I have seen that a few times during this build., so basically the main spring is still attached to the Z Bar, it broke away from the body connection. I might add, its a real tough stretch to get that thing on too, from what I remember.
 

427John

Well Known Member
Be aware that there at least 3 different height clutch release bearings for GM's,so if you have problems getting it adjusted its something to keep in mind.The centerforce I have used one of the shorter ones because it has a fairly high arch diaphram spring but its an older one that wasn't called a G-force though it did have the centrifugal assist weights on it.If its the bearing that came with the clutch kit you should be OK,in my case I had to get a replacement and of course got the wrong one,a taller one so I couldn't get the freeplay before it ran out of adjustment.
 

DonSSDD

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
I would adjust the clutch linkage without the springs on it, take all of the looseness out of the linkage at the clutch fork, then a small bit more. The springs on the linkage below are only anti rattle, the big broken spring assists in pulling the linkage back quick and firm I’d guess. This should allow you to get the car moving if everything you have is correct.If you are a serious drag racer, the clutch adjustment will need some more fine tuning than what I am saying above.

The hurst shifter is a great shifter, no sloppy shifting, just nice clean shifts, way better than stock imho. If you adjusted the arms correctly and nothing wrong with the transmission, it will be fine. May take getting used to if you are used to sloppy shifters? Your problem shifting may just be you didn’t have the clutch linkage snugged up tight?
Post a pic of your shift linkage too.
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
I would adjust the clutch linkage without the springs on it, take all of the looseness out of the linkage at the clutch fork, then a small bit more. The springs on the linkage below are only anti rattle, the big broken spring assists in pulling the linkage back quick and firm I’d guess. This should allow you to get the car moving if everything you have is correct.If you are a serious drag racer, the clutch adjustment will need some more fine tuning than what I am saying above.

The hurst shifter is a great shifter, no sloppy shifting, just nice clean shifts, way better than stock imho. If you adjusted the arms correctly and nothing wrong with the transmission, it will be fine. May take getting used to if you are used to sloppy shifters? Your problem shifting may just be you didn’t have the clutch linkage snugged up tight?
Post a pic of your shift linkage too.
Will do I’m driving up to get a new dog this morning after lunch when I get home I will look everything over again.
 
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