How to tell a 348 or 409 car. Need input for our FAQ page

bobs409

 
Administrator
"How can I tell if my car is/was an original w-motor car?" This is a common question I'm asked repeatedly and really deserves to be on our FAQ page. Thought I'd consult you guys on this so we can put together an accurate list. :help

I'm sure there are probably a few "secret" things some may not want to share with the general public that may help spot fakes but if we can get a list of common things to look for, it sure would help alot of people. Ya know, the basics like fan shrouds and ballast resistors, brake and fuel lines, etc. Each year 58-65 would be great.

So if anyone can offer anything, just list by year and engine/transmission type. Don't be afraid to be specific, that's what we're looking for. :)
 

Tom Kochtanek

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 12
Some common things to observe

Bob, I just know the 61 and 62 models. In addition to the usual fuel line, resistor, fan shroud stuff, the 1961 models used badging on the hood and trunk to denote the 348. I bet the SS models all had them as well as the Impala, Belair and Biscayne. These hood and trunk badges are about 7- 8 inches wide, centered, and are used to differentiate the six cylinder from the 283 and another for the 348/409.

In 1962 models, the hood and trunk badges are all the same, but the fenders havd the cross flags with the 409 emblem to designate the 409 "W" engine lurked inside. Just the cross flags meant "327" and there was another badge for the 283 (not cross flags). I look for external badging first (assuming it is factory original), then fuel lines and other parts under the hood.

When you are seeing things in barns, fields, and such from a distance, and you can't get close up without stomping on private property, these visual cues are helpful :). Then you go up to the door and ask permission. Which is when you find out "the guy is gonna restore it someday"...

Good thread, I hope this is what you are looking for.

Best,
TomK
 

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
Okay, I can think of a few things. Here's one. Fuel lines... I think all W motor cars had 3/8" fuel lines, although I'm not sure about the lower horsepower 348s. And The 3/8" lines were routed differently on X frame cars, they went through the inside of the driveshaft tunnel while the 5/16" line was routed down the outside of the tunnel. The 5/16" line also runs inside the frame between the frame and exhaust manifold while the 3/8" line runs under the upper A arm of the front suspension. I think this was done to reduce heating of the fuel. 300hp 327s also came with 3/8" lines. In 63 & 64 and maybe 65 high perf 409s also had a fuel return line. I don't know if 340hp models had return lines. Please feel free to correct or add to this fuel line info.
 

Seon

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
All the above info are great ...provided that the engine is in the car. What's being identified are the fuel line size, routing, and other supporting parts. But how could one tell if a 409 and a 348 were removed from the car then placed side by side with a 4 bbl manifold and carb? Other than reading the serial numbers that is :dunno .
 

64ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
jim_ss409 said:
I don't know if 340hp models had return lines. Please feel free to correct or add to this fuel line info.
The 340's in 63 and 64 had a return line. I don't know about 65
Ron
 

bobs409

 
Administrator
Now we're getting there. More, more! :D

I guess I better add something too. :p

1) All 348/409's had dual exhaust. The presence (or remnents) of dual exhaust hangers should/could be there.

2) All 1962 327 & 409 4 speed cars had a tach mandatory.

3) All 1961 & 1962 409's had a standard transmission. Car must have this, no automatics.

4) Larger radiator. Was it 3 or 4 core???

5) No AC on high performance 409's. (63-65 for sure, not certain on 62?)

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above! ;)


Tom: good call on the badging. I wasn't even thinking of that area. I have some pics of some sent to me by Carl K that I can post with this info. (where the heck is he anyway?)

Ron, 1965 340's did have the return line. A friend has an original '65 340hp Impala and his has it. (member: 65impala409)

We need to investigate the fuel line issue more. Also, for 1958-62, was it only the W-motor cars that had a ballast resistor? I'm not sure on those earlier years.
 

Ronnie Russell

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Had 63 327 Impala recently . Had the fuel line routed under upper control arm. Gearhead stated "all" dual ex. had this route. This 327 car would seem to confirm that. Next statement to cause big disagreement , but we are trying to arrive at correct info. so here goes. Have seen correct 62 409-409 last month without factory tach. If you look at original window sticker(Chevy Rumble showed one , issue before last, The tach was an option-not part of 409 option. Granted, probably 98% 409 cars had factory tach , but a few did not. Recently talked to a man who bought new 409-409 in early 1962 , whos car did not have factory tach.
 

gearhead409

Well Known Member
Ronnie

i don't doubt you at all.not every car was built as it should be from the factory. i have a 62 ss original (never been messed with) with a bench seat code on the cowl tag but has ss in the acc. area of the cowl tag. i had a buddy that worked in the norwood plant back then, he could tell you stories of things that happened for many reasons including shortages of parts ( the car had to drive off the assembly line whether it had the right parts on it or not ). these cars would be original but would not do well on the judging field. i think the tac issue is like the 62 ss option, the ss and bucket seats were two differant options but had to be ordered together. high performance engine, 4speed, tac, the same thing. i also think if you ordered a high performance engine in 62 without the 4speed you didn't get the tac option. hey these issues are fun to talk about, lots of gray area!
 

Ronnie Russell

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Gearhead409, I really agree with your comment "shortage of parts-had to be delivered". Also know of "correct in every way" 409-409 with 61 non-drippers. Engine was un-touched, but some will argue that they were changed later. In my opinion, early 62 was all a gray area.
 

wrench

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 15
brakes

bobs409 said:
Now we're getting there. More, more!

Don't forget the brake options.

Another thing to consider when eyeballing old iron.....

A LOT of things were changed by the various owners in the interceding years. Don't expect that what you see is always original to the car, no matter how original it looks.

:cool:
 
M

MK IISS

Guest
I may be wrong but I think 1963 was the first year the tach was included with the 4-speed cars that had 327/300 engines and higher. The tach was a separate and non-mandatory option on 1963 327/250s and 283s. In 1962 the tach was a separate non mandatory option on ALL V/8s including the 409. I believe it was the same deal on the 61s except for the SS cars. The '61 SS option was an exception. All '61 SS cars required the tach option, code # 331.
 

gearhead409

Well Known Member
Ronnie

the ss 62 i had talked about was built in flint 1st week of nov. 61 ( early car ) i had bought and sold a ss 62 that was built in st.louis the 5th week of aug. ( a really early car ) it had a 61 rear axle hsg. with drain plug and a 61 master cyl. Wrench, brake parts could be a good clue but could be ordered with other engine options. you are very correct with your statement about parts that could have been changed when the car may have been only a few years old. a good example is the picture of the 62 409-409 with 4speed on ebay also shown in these threads a while back. it looked old and rusty but it had 348 tripower valve covers on it.
 

Ronnie Russell

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Gearhead, the e-bay engine you refer to belonged to a friend of mine. I brokered the sale and that is the engine I was referring to. After close examination by many, everything appeared to be correct. The shifter hole was factory, not hacksaw job. The entire car appeared to be untouched. Why were the earlier valve covers on there? Could it have been a case of "out of parts, the engine needs to shipped" I dont know. I wish Wrench would have driven over to look at it since he is "in the neighborhood" This engine was in a 4dr ht. Not one performance mod. done to car. The engine-trans. sold---car broken up, so it will always be a mystery. I had possession of this car for several weeks during sale and examined top to bottom, front to rear. Did not have a P-case. Blown up and replaced? Dont know. Trans vin matched motor vin nos. Every little screw, nut, cotter pin, linkage, etc. appeared to be 1962 untouched. Could it have been changed in 63,64 or later? Yep, but it sure didnt show evidence. Fender emblem holes had same discoloration as flag holes. It was fun selling, but I refused to sell car as correct because it could not be 100% verified.
 
M

MK IISS

Guest
I am wrong on the 1962 cars. Apparently in 1962 when you ordered a 4-spd with the 327/300 or higher horsepower engine the tach was included. A friend is sending me a copy of a '62 window sticker from a 409 car, which shows the 4-spd option, # 685, retailing for $236.75. My retail pricing book shows the same figure including the tach on 327/300, 409/380 & 409/409 engines. The 4-spd option with the 327/250 is $188.30 which does not include a tach. The tach is a separate option on the 250 horse, option #331 for $48.45. So I guess if a '62 factory 4-spd 409 does not have a tach or the holes in the steering colum where there was one, it is not an original 409 car. A 327/300 or either of the 409s with a 3-spd trans may not have a tach unless it was ordered separately.
 

Ronnie Russell

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Chevy Rumble Feb-March 2005 page 93 1962 window sticker-----option list---331A-tachometer- $48.45----580S-turdbo fire 409Eng.$320.65------587A Dual 4bbl carb $56-------675A-positraction axle $43.05------685A 4sp.transmission $188.30 All items listed seperatly. Doesnt that mean you can add or delete by direct order for build?
 
M

MK IISS

Guest
Ronnie:

I Don't have an answer to your question. My info is from a window sticker and Chevrolet ordering info. Yours is from a magazine article. Only you can decide which one you believe to be more reliable.

I did not order cars in 1962 but I did in 1963...ordered my own '63 409 while working for my Uncle who was a dealer. I do not believe, in '63, I could have ordered my car without the tach by deleting it. There were only a few standard equipment delete options...such as option C48 which is the heater & defroster delete code (credit $72.00). I can't prove it but I believe it was the same in 1962.

On the other had a '62 409 could have been an original 3-spd car, without a tach, and the 4-spd was installed later by a dealer or owner.
 

Ronnie Russell

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Richard, The magazine article shows the picture of the window sticker. It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that very early 62s were merchandised differently than say mid-year. Maybe early 62s could be ordered witha different criteria. The article shows a window stirker with the tach shown as option. Your friend has a window sticker with the tach. included with 4 sp option. I believe they are both correct. I can prove nothing, ,, dont even want to. As Gearhead said " its fun discussing the issues"
 
M

MK IISS

Guest
Ronnie:

I agree, you bring up a good point. There could have very well been a change during the 1962 production year.... where later the tach became standard on the 4-spd 409s. I know Chevrolet was suffering from a lot of warrenty claims with the 409. Many were being sold to inexperienced drivers who were missing shifts and over revving the engine.
 

ROYALOAK62

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 1
How to tell 348 409

Someone told me or I read somewhere that all 348 & 409 HI-Perf. engines with soild lifters thru 1962 used a 35 Amp generator with the deep groove pulleys. I'm sure someone will disagree with this because of the part shortage thing. But an thing to think about.

Dave
 
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