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de31168

Well Known Member
I think everyone is on the right track here with spring and suspension suggestions, but it looks to me like a slightly longer burn out may help too. At least from that last video in post #33. I watched the one with the '62 three times to see how the burnout was in it....but ended up paying more attention to the cars themselves and missed it each time. Finally gave up. LOL

I am almost sure I have issues of Super Chevy and one a Popular Hot Rodding from the 90's with that 4 door BBC 1962 Biscayne in it. If not, then one just like it except it still had a flat hood. If you talk to them, ask them if they were in the magazines. Also, invite them to come join us here on the 348-409 Forum. Take it from me, they welcome people with rat motors here too. I have been around this group for YEARS and didn't have a 409 until a few months back.

Yeah that's the same 62. I have a short clip from Super Chevy Indy when Brett Kepner interviewed them and had 6 people in the car getting out all 4 doors! We likely won't see them again until next year as Route 66 held their final test and tune last friday night.

As far as the rest... we've had line lock issues and burnout issues from the start. We're finally getting that to work. Also we have received advice here and there on what to do with the chassis, but mostly suggestions from people with 6-9 second cars. I agree that we are definitely not throwing that kind of horsepower at it, so I appreciate the insight you guys provide. We're going to give that a shot. Lastly, that was only my personal 5th and 6th passes in the car. My dad has the other 34. So i'm kind of a newbie at it too, but I'm learning. Thanks for all the kind words!
 

BSL409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 6
As far as the rest... we've had line lock issues and burnout issues from the start. We're finally getting that to work. Also we have received advice here and there on what to do with the chassis, but mostly suggestions from people with 6-9 second cars. I agree that we are definitely not throwing that kind of horsepower at it, so I appreciate the insight you guys provide. We're going to give that a shot. Lastly, that was only my personal 5th and 6th passes in the car. My dad has the other 34. So i'm kind of a newbie at it too, but I'm learning. Thanks for all the kind words![/quote]
Yup seat time is your best friend and am at about 139 runs in two years and still learning
 

de31168

Well Known Member
Yeah my very first pass was an 11.47 121mph and i lifted early, and I have no idea why. That was September 2010. We didn't get out much so my second try was October 2011, and that was 11.07 124mph. We went out a few weeks later and I had an 11.08 123mph. That was the last time down the track when we started having engine issues and the car was down for nearly 2 years. This time my 4th run was 11.00 124mph. Then these runs here in these videos were the first I was able to make back to back instead of just the last pass before loading up. My dad has way too much fun driving to let someone else do it. :D 11.06 and 11.13. It definitely takes some getting used to driving something with that kind of power. After the first few runs I'd get asked.. "What was your launch RPM?" "I don't know..." "What did you shift at?" "I don't know..." "Didn't you see the shift light?" "What shift light?" "What was your RPM at the finish line?" "I don't know..." :doh :laugh Finally on the 4th run when I was shifting from 3rd to 4th just before pulling the shifter I saw the light blink on. Thought.. "Huh there it is.. timed that pretty well" And saw it on through the finish line. By the 6th pass I was able to pay attention to the tach just as the tree started to come down and the shift light and glance at the tach going through the lights. I definitely feel much more comfortable in the car. After the initial shock of "don't miss a shift, don't forget the clutch, don't crash the car, don't blow the engine." It actually gets fun! :D
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
All of my passes have been so widely scattered over the last 15 years that I will be a total newb too when I go back. It's been over 3 years since my last trip now.
 

de31168

Well Known Member
I did some very thorough chassis investigation. (I have no prior knowledge of the stuff so i'm learning it all at once.) When the car had the chassis done, the engine and trans, interior, etc were not in it. The 4 link was just set at a base random setting. We've always tinkered with shock settings and spring settings and tire pressures. Others have offered advice on pinion angles and how to set the rear shocks/springs and even how to set the 4 link. None seemed to help. I read everything I could from chassis companies online and other general math/geometry equations on how to figure this stuff all out. What did I find out? The car was nowhere close to being right.

The car is porpoising. This will happen when the front and rear springs have a frequency that is close to each other. Imagine a teeter toter with a spring under each end. Just as weight is making one side fall, the compressed spring on the other end is pushing up. When the other side comes down, the process repeats itself and the energy keeps switching from end to end back and forth. The answer is to put lighter springs in one end of the car. Or stiffer. An instant center that is directly under the center of gravity can also produce the affect (or is it effect. I forget) or exaggerate the previous condition with the springs. Also, is the front of the car limited?? looks like it could use more travel. The car doesn't have enough hp to produce the desired weight transfer by sheer acceleration alone. It needs a little help. Also, run tubes if you don't have them already. Or better yet, a stiff sidewall tire. Unfortunately, nobody I am aware of makes them in a 9" tire.

Thank you for all the potential suggestions. I checked into your ideas. Front springs are 450, rears are 200. They aren't close enough to bounce back and forth with each other thankfully. The instant center? No where near the center of gravity. Is the front end limited? Yes, by the stock snubbers on both control arms to prevent bottoming either way. I do not think now that this has as much of an effect as the 4 link did, but pending future results it could be the next place to check. The tires do have tubes, and we run the D05 stick compound Hoosier tire that all the high flying NHRA Super Stocks do.

Cool videos! :beer The car looks and sounds great!

I'm no expert but if you have an adjustable four link I think raising the front of your lower bars one hole might help you hook a bit better. If you watch the second video closely, it looks like the back end of the car squats just a bit when you dump the clutch. (looking at the tire in the wheel well) Raising the front of the lower bars a bit will move your instant center up a bit which should cause the tires to plant themselves harder when you dump the clutch. At least that's the way it's supposed to work. :D
It's hard to get a good baseline suggestion for a four link because the best setting depends on how much power the car has, how heavy it is, wheelbase, standard or automatic etc. but they do say that setting the suspension so that the back end squats a bit is usually not the best way to go on a ten or eleven second car. I gather that you usually don't want squat, either a neutral setting or if anything a little bit of lift on the rear end is usually best.

Your idea brought me to investigate this and instead of relying on others, teach myself how it works and how it should be set. I can't thank you enough for the observations. I finally was able to get to the car and measure and calculate everything. I learned about how to check the center of gravity, the percentage of antisquat, the instant center, and the percentage of rise. As you were saying about the setup needing to be neutral or even a little lift, neutral would be a 100% antisquat rating. I'm sure you know, and from what I have learned, anything above is planting the tire and lifting the rear, anything below is squatting the rear and pushing the tire up. The results? The car had an antisquat of 46.86%! The instant center was nowhere close to where it needed to be, it was very low and very forward. After recalculating the angles and measures, I moved the bars accordingly, and recalculated and measured again. The results? The car now has an antisquat of 100.08%. The instant center is right on the neutral line and about 10" forward of the center of gravity, so it should hopefully still pull the front wheels a little.

I can not wait to get to the track and see what the results yield. It's all a big learning process and we certainly appreciate the insight. You guys are great!
 

Ishiftem

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Those spring rates are too heavy. They do not have enough stored energy. This will make the front end slow to rise and the rear slow to react. What you need are longer and lighter springs. The lighter the better! The Do5 compound is also too soft for a stick car. Hoosier recommends the DO7 compound for a stick and the Mickey Thompson st tire is also a harder compound made especially for a stick car. DO not look at what tires or suspension settings people using an auto do. A stick car is far more violent than any auto even if it has a trans brake and requires a different setup. You are spinning the tires pretty hard so it may not show up, but look at the wear pattern on the slicks. They should have a nice velvet appearance. If they look like they are more feathered and rough, the compound is too soft. The rubber will just ball up and it is like trying to launch on marbles. We had 10.5" DO5 Hoosiers that did that. Went to a 9" DO7 and the car hooked way better even though they were 1.5 inches narrower. You are on the right track with the new instant center. If you still have a problem, try keeping the same anti squat but shorten the IC length. This will put the force vector closer to the CG and will use more weight of the car pushing on the tire. The reason is unlike a ladder bar, The force vector is aimed forward and up so to put the force right under the CG the IC needs to be behind it. and below it. A ladder bar has a a force vector that shoots straight up and has more force. Ever wonder why a ladder bar car is more violent than a four link and throws the rear of the car up? That's why. Next Saturday Cordova has an open invitation for the NSSI group. Free entry. Probably get you in if interested and may qualify as on outing for joining. One other thing. Launching a heavy stick car on a 9" tire with a torquey engine like these strokers is a real balancing act. if the clutch is too tight, NOTHING you do will get the car to hook. It will simply shock the tire loose every time. Hope this all helps!
 

de31168

Well Known Member
Whoops I meant D07 not D05! We do have the harder compound tire. Thanks for the extra info! :) I'm unsure about Cordova next saturday. That's a long haul for us. We're probably just going to keep it local for the balance of the season. I appreciate the offer though!
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Dan is right about your spring rates...... my 61 has 213# fronts and 150# rears. I'm not saying those are what you need (or even that they are perfect for my car) but lighter springs would definitely help you out. 450# fronts would be great if you were trying to keep the car flat around corners. I bet a swap to some around 240# (tall skinny Moroso "trick springs" made for Chevelles and Camaros fit and work well) would have your front end lifting up and really putting some weight on those slicks!!!
 

de31168

Well Known Member
Actually the front spring rate is incorrect. We do have the Moroso trick springs in front with i believe half a coil cut off to get ride height. I don't see where they make one for that weight. I'll have to check the box to see what part # they were. They might be the 270s. The question I have asked a lot lately is Why? Why are we changing what we change and what are its effects. The reason we have the springs that we do are based on front or rear vehicle weights. We have scaled the car with the 4 corner scales to know what front weight is, rear weight, and what each corner weight is. We have Koni double adjustable coil overs. I have spoken to them directly about proper settings based on my application and weights. We have the option to switch back to the 175lb rear springs we had, but our loaded "race ready with driver" rear vehicle weight calls for 200lbs. We still have the older set. It is stated to go with the lighter spring when possible, but at 175 they are borderline too weak. Different suspension styles, different shock styles, and different weight all factor in from what I have learned. After resetting the 4 link we are going to rescale the car just to double check everything. For our application in weight and shock travel, 150lb rear springs would be in some bad coil bind.
 

Ishiftem

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
The factors to consider when choosing a spring are rate, free length, and motion ration of the suspension. The 175 springs are not too weak, the ones you have are probably too short. I have 175 and will probably switch them to 150 this winter. You would need to probably get a longer shock in the car and find the right length spring with the right amount of coils. Just something to consider. You could theoretically support the rear of the car with a 50 pound spring but the free length would have to be over 3 feet long!
 

de31168

Well Known Member
Well. Better but not great. 2 goals were accomplished. 1 - don't crash the car. 2 - make a 10 second pass. After 4 aborted runs the 5th finally popped up 10.92 @ 123.25mph. First pass in the 10's but we were hoping for more. The car is reacting to changes now. It's not squatting in the back and hammering the shocks and springs. Now the fine tuning begins... It only had a 1.58 60 foot time. It has been as quick as 1.48 with the old and very wrong setup.
 

de31168

Well Known Member
Thanks guys! Everyone loves a video so here it is. Don't mind the shitty attempt at a burnout. The RPM's weren't high enough and the car pretty much hooked in the water. Doh.

 

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
Congratulations on the ten second pass! :clap
The suspension sure looks a lot better at the new setting. :beer Too bad the 60' time won't co-operate. :cuss (I hate it when actual results don't fall in line with our super smart theories) :D
Anyway, I think you're heading in the right direction. Track prep could be a factor.
I don't know much about launching a stick car, it could be that you could use even more antisquat to hit the tires even harder. (maybe 110 or 120%) :scratch
With your neutral 100% antisquat there is very little movement in the rear suspension so springs and shock settings won't have much effect but if you do increase the antisquat, the rear axle will want to push the car up and drive the tires down when you pop the clutch. You can use the shocks to control how hard it hits.
 

de31168

Well Known Member
Thanks. Yeah the car wouldn't get down the track at 100% actually. Also learned it can't launch less than 5,500 or it bogs so hard it almost dies. That last pass was at 130%. I do feel that the shocks need some playing with, but they were closing and that was one of the last passes of the day. Changing bars at the track makes for a long day! The track is probably partially to blame, but it's all we have to work with. I already have new ideas to try and am ready to go out next weekend! Unfortunately I think due to the weather and some other things we're trying will probably make us done for the season. It's going to be a loooooong 6 months, but a 10 second time slip hanging on the bulletin board is encouraging. :D
 
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