Motor in and out

[Carmine]

Hi everyone. Today was the day to install the motor. My friends showed up at 8:30AM, and after a little b.s., we got started. Got the motor into the engine compartment and was able to get it under the power brake booster, but not before scratching that and the valve cover. If that's all that ever gets scratched, I can live with it. I don't have an engine leveler and the back was sitting too low to bring it down onto the frame motor mount. We used a bottle jack to raise the rear which allowed us to secure the bolts through the motor mounts. Also took off the starter which made it easier. The motor was temporarily secured in the frame and the car was then raised. When we got it to the proper height, I put a tall jack stand under it and removed the chain from the frame rails. Next was the trans. I had previously put on the linkage/shifter and we were good to go. This sucker is heavy. It has a partial aluminum case and the rest is cast iron. One of my friends and I grabbed the trans. and tried the install. Past the clutch disc and stopped. Wouldn't go any further no matter how we shaked it. Continued trying until our arms got tired. I put a few of these in and never had a problem before. The face of the trans. was about 3/8" away from the bell housing. I have a trans. jack so we decided to give that a try. Still a no go no matter what. I even put 2 bolts in the trans. ears trying to draw it up tight, but stopped when I met with resistance. I bet for the better part of 2 hours, we struggled with this thing. Should have quit way before that, but we didn't. Something definitely not right. Same bell housing, fly wheel and trans. from the other motor. New clutch, pressure plate, throw out bearing and pilot bearing in the crank. So, it was mentioned to pull the motor and take the back end apart. I knew it had to be done and I immediately developed a new low level of disgust. We pulled the motor and took the back pieces off exposing the crankshaft. The plastic alignment tool that came with the disc and pp, fit into the pilot busing quite well. It also appeared to be the same size as the input shaft of the trans., if that's what its called. The only thing left to do was to try the trans. which we did. It went into the bearing maybe 1/8" and stopped. The inside of the bearing was too small for the shaft. Are you kidding me!! We aren't machinist but I do have a micrometer. Measured as best possible and there appears to be 3-4 100"s of an inch difference. We tried the trans. again and with a lot of shaking, moving, twisting and force behind it, the trans. went in a little further but not all the way. Had to use a pry bar to remove it. Much too tight. I recalled getting a new pilot bushing with the kit and I tried this on the end of the shaft. Fit perfect. I didn't know this existed so I had the machine shop install one for me. I then called the machine shop and explained the problem to them. They said that the bushing did go in very tight and it could have collapsed a little. They offered a few ideas one of which was to use a die grinder and make the hole just a hair bigger. I'm going to stop by their shop tomorrow and further discuss this. Well, there you have it. I'm sure I left something out. So, the motor was in and out.

I don't know about everyone else, but I hate doing the same job twice. It irritates me to no end. It seems like everything I do, its a guarantee I'll be back. Sometimes more then twice. Ridiculous. Now I'm back to thinking about installing the trans. on the motor so I don't have to go through this nonsense again. Maybe I'll take my chances with the weight. I know it could have been worse, but I don't find any comfort in that either.

I did take some pics which I'll still post later. Might as well, nothing is going to change, Carmine.

 

[blkblk63ss]

Carmine did you resurface your flywheel? If not i would get that done . I put a NEW,,,,,,,,,, flywheel, clutch and pressure plate, and thought it would be fine,Nope, chatter's like crazy . S o i am going to have to pull tran's out and get flywheel resurfaced. Any way sometime's $h%% happen's.

 

[63 dream'n]

Hi everyone. Today was the day to install the motor. My friends showed up at 8:30AM, and after a little b.s., we got started. Got the motor into engine compartment and was able to get it under the power brake booster, but not before scratching that and the valve cover. If that's all that ever gets scratched, I can live with it. I don't have an engine leveler and the back was sitting too low to bring it down onto the frame motor mount. We used a bottle jack to raise the rear which allowed us to secure the bolts through the motor mounts. Also took off the starter which made it easier. The motor was temporarily secured in the frame and the car was then raised. When we got it to the proper height, I put a tall jack stand under it and removed the chain from the frame rails. Next was the trans. I had previously put on the linkage/shifter and we were good to go. This sucker is heavy. It has a partial aluminum case and the rest is cast iron. One of my friends and I grabbed the trans. and tried the install. Past the clutch disc and stopped. Wouldn't go any further no matter how we shaked it. Continued trying until our arms got tired. I put a few of these in and never had a problem before. The face of the trans. was about 3/8" away from the bell housing. I have a trans. jack so we decided to give that a try. Still a no go no matter what. I even put 2 bolts in the trans. ears trying to draw it up tight, but stopped when I met with resistance. I bet for the better part of 2 hours, we struggled with this thing. Should have quit way before that, but we didn't. Something definitely not right. Same bell housing, fly wheel and trans. from the other motor. New clutch, pressure plate, throw out bearing and pilot bearing in the crank. So, it was mentioned to pull the motor and take the back end apart. I knew it had to be done and I immediately developed a new low level of disgust. We pulled the motor and took the back pieces off exposing the crankshaft. The plastic alignment tool that came with the disc and pp, fit into the pilot busing quite well. It also appeared to be the same size as the input shaft of the trans., if that's what its called. The only thing left to do was to try the trans. which we did. It went into the bearing maybe 1/8" and stopped. The inside of the bearing was too small for the shaft. Are you kidding me!! We aren't machinist but I do have a micrometer. Measured as best possible and there appears to be 3-4 100"s of an inch difference. We tried the trans. again and with a lot of shaking, moving, twisting and force behind it, the trans. went in a little further but not all the way. Had to use a pry bar to remove it. Much too tight. I recalled getting a new pilot bushing with the kit and I tried this on the end of the shaft. Fit perfect. I didn't know this existed so I had the machine shop install one for me. I then called the machine shop and explained the problem to them. They said that the bushing did go in very tight and it could have collapsed a little. They offered a few ideas one of which was to use a die grinder and make the hole just a hair bigger. I'm going to stop by their shop tomorrow and further discuss this. Well, there you have it. I'm sure I left something out. So, the motor was in and out.

I don't know about everyone else, but I hate doing the same job twice. It irritates me to no end. It seems like everything I do, its a guarantee I'll be back. Sometimes more then twice. Ridiculous. Now I'm back to thinking about installing the trans. on the motor so I don't have to go through this nonsense again. Maybe I'll take my chances with the weight. I know it could have been worse, but I don't find any comfort in that either.

I did take some pics which I'll still post later. Might as well, nothing is going to change, Carmine.

Sorry to hear all your troubles Carmine.......depressing.Sure wish you'd scanned thru the recent thread for mistakes to avoid for 409s,pilot bushing was one of those checks,but that's how I learn best (unfortunatley) by mistake......

 

[DonSSDD]

I have an old input shaft off a transmission I use as an alignment tool when installing the clutch & PP. I find the plastic ones are short and not as precise when aligning and tightening the clutch as the real steel input shaft. Once it slides in and out easily, then I torque the pressure plate bolts. If you don't get that just right, its very hard to get the nose all the way into the pilot bushing and that could be your problem.

Maybe you can borrow an old input shaft? Or find a long drill or rod that measures the same diameter as the nose on your tranny and see if it fits into your pilot bushing, before pulling or drilling?

And be very careful with putting bolts in those ears to pull the tranny into the pilot bushing, very easy to break them off.

Don

 

[Carmine]

Sorry to hear all your troubles Carmine.......depressing.Sure wish you'd scanned thru the recent thread for mistakes to avoid for 409s,pilot bushing was one of those checks,but that's how I learn best (unfortunatley) by mistake......

Yes, I wish I had also scanned through threads for mistakes to avoid. Its just that I thought one pilot bushing would fit all. It was never a thought to check it against the trans. shaft itself. There was an expectation on my part, that it would fit properly. I think I agree with the machine shop. The bushing went in tight and it collapsed just a tiny bit. It' s very close to fitting and probably doesn't need much but is still too tight. You're right. It is depressing. You try to do everything right. Buy quality parts. Have the necessary work done, and then this. Hindsight being what it is, I now also think that the problem could have been detected with the motor in the car. I would have pulled all the stuff off the back, like I did upon removal, and I think the end result would have been the same. Like they say, tomorrow is a new day.

Don, I do have one of those old cutoff input shafts but didn't use it. I used the plastic one supplied in the kit. Wish I had that moment back, Carmine.

 

[yellow wagon]

Be very careful drawing the trans up to the bellhousing. Those ears will break right off. Ask me I how I know.

I would install the motor and trans as a unit into the car. That way you can get better leverage installing the trans to the bellhousing, be sure all the bolts are torqued etc. Works great with a leveler.

 

[Carmine]

Here are the pics I mentioned. I'll take some more when I do it a second time, as usual, Carmine.

 

[Phil Reed]

Nick......wrong clutch fork if you are trying to use 62 linkage. Sorry! !!

 

[Carmine]

Nick......wrong clutch fork if you are trying to use 62 linkage. Sorry! !!

OK Phil. Now is the time for me to correct anything before I try it again. The bell housing and clutch fork you see in the pic (I put the new leather boot on), and linkage which you can't see, all came with the car and motor-sbc 327. I would like to use that '62 linkage but it needs to be right also. I drove it down the driveway a few times and all seemed to work well. I bought the 409 Z bar and had that installed until removal. So what exactly is it that you say I need?? I don't mind buying parts but I don't know what they are. Thanks Phil.

Just checked Show Cars and Hubbards for clutch forks. They have the same listing. Clutch forks for '58-'62 all and '63 409. Not sure where to go from there.

 

[Phil Reed]

The clutch fork you have is 55-60 and uses a different lower rod. Call me in the morning and I'll describe. Plus, the bellhousing clutch fork boot is rubber...the 55-60 was leather.

 

[yellow wagon]

Are the heads unpainted? How come you didn't paint those?

 

[mark johnson]

I have an adjustable reamer that I have set to the proper ID of pilot bushings after they are installed. You can slit a 1/2 wooden dowel rod, insert some sandpaper and make a quick flapper to return the ID back to original size or remove any burrs. Also, cut the hex head off from couple of 2.00 long bolts, thread them into two of the four trans-to-bellhousing bolt holes to use for guidepins when sliding the transmission forward.

 

[Phil Reed]

I have an adjustable reamer that I have set to the proper ID of pilot bushings after they are installed. You can slit a 1/2 wooden dowel rod, insert some sandpaper and make a quick flapper to return the ID back to original size or remove any burrs. Also, cut the hex head off from couple of 2.00 long bolts, thread them into two of the four trans-to-bellhousing bolt holes to use for guidepins when sliding the transmission forward.

good info Mark! !!

 

[1961BelAir427]

good info Mark! !!

Yes it is. Reminds me of when I used sand paper wrapped around something in a drill to slightly enlarge the I.D. of a used inner pinion bearing so that I would have a "set-up" bearing to get pinion depth correct. It took FOREVER. Luckily that brass/bronze pilot bearing is MUCH softer material.

Hang in there Carmine. You've almost got it whipped! It's going to be soooo worth all the trouble.

 

[real61ss]

This is the pilot bushing that you need. i went through this last winter, do a search and you will find all the info. Wrong bushing almost destroyed my motor.

http://www.dormanproducts.com/itemdetail.aspx?ProductID=18310&SEName=690-034

 

[Carmine]

Are the heads unpainted? How come you didn't paint those?

I like the look of the steely/gray heads and water pump. I like the way it blends with the orange block and aluminum colored intake. I cleaned everything well and used a VHT clear paint for those parts.

 

[skipxt4]

Here's something else, you can try Carmine. Loosen all the bellhousing to block bolts. Not so much, that the bellhousing wants to fall off. This, will give you more wiggle room. Up and down and side to side. It worked for me.

 

[skipxt4]

Of course, if the snout of the transmission won't go in, the pilot bearing got a little out of shape, after installation. After, you finally get it to bottom out, if it still won't slide in, then loosen the bell housing bolts.

 

[Carmine]

Thanks everyone for your responses and advice. I really appreciate it. Went to the machine shop today and the machinist loaned me a tool. It was a shank and on one end there was like a round cylinder that had sandpaper on it. The cylinder was about 1 inch long. It was just slightly smaller then the hole in the pilot bushing. I've never seen one before. He told me to use it in a die grinder and do a little at a time till I got the shaft to fit. Returned home and put this tool in the die grinder. I forgot how fast that thing turns and shut it off quickly. I then used my 3/8" drill with this tool. Did a little at a time and kept it moving. I could see some dust coming out. Kept checking it until I got the cut off input shaft to go in and out freely. Next I cleaned the end of the input shaft with emery cloth. A little lube and I tried the transmission. It didn't go in right away. Had to shake and jiggle it a bit and then in went in. I think my angle might have been off. I'm going to give the install another shot Friday. I also bought an engine leveler. Want to at least have it available if I wish to install the engine and trans. together. I honestly don't know which way to go. I don't like the idea of all that weight but I also don't want to fuss with the trans. again under the car. Decisions. Decisions. Guess I'll see what tomorrow brings. Will take some additional pics and report back, Carmine.

 

[Don Jacks]

Carmine,be sure to put a little heavy grease inside the bushing and on the input shaft where it goes into the bushing.It doesn't take but a little,but don't put it together dry.