Aha!
I too enjoy the back and forth asynchronous discussions this group has been having on this topic (well, several topics, including the Ford roof lines!). It's been quite spirited and certainly informative
.
Mark, are you the one who won that GM document on Ebay? Looks like a great report to have on hand.
Best,
TomK
I too enjoy the back and forth asynchronous discussions this group has been having on this topic (well, several topics, including the Ford roof lines!). It's been quite spirited and certainly informative
.Mark, are you the one who won that GM document on Ebay? Looks like a great report to have on hand
.Best,
TomK
brisbane47
Well Known Member
1962 Chevrolet Grand National Body:
MKIISS, You are correct on the 1962 body, all the major players used the Bel Air Sport Coupe body in 1962. In some of my pictures I have two that were taken of Rex White and Ned Jarrett at Daytona 1962 with their Jim Rathmann sponsored Bel Air Coupes. Now, if I can just find them............. Brisbane47
MKIISS, You are correct on the 1962 body, all the major players used the Bel Air Sport Coupe body in 1962. In some of my pictures I have two that were taken of Rex White and Ned Jarrett at Daytona 1962 with their Jim Rathmann sponsored Bel Air Coupes. Now, if I can just find them............. Brisbane47
Fran Preve
Banned
It's the Chevrolet engineers presentation book for the SAE explaining how the Mark IV was developed and it's salient engineering features. I've probably got it somewhere, I know I've got the one for the W block engine. It lays the whole program out.
Aerodynamically Chevrolet and Pontiac had aerodynamic roofs thru 1962 (except in Pontiac didn't have the "Bel Air" style roof in 62 I don't think.
Ford ran the T-bird body in 1959 with the 430 Lincoln motor, the square back roof drag was offset by the bigger motor. Then in 1960 Ford used the Starliner body (and in 1961). Both years were the hign point for Ford aerodynamically. In 1962 Ford didn't have a "fastback" type roof in production so attempted to get around the rules by puting a 1961 roof on a 1962 body but it wasn't production and had to be cobbled up at any rate, NASCAR wouldn't let them run it (?).
1963 was Fords year as they came out with the "fastback" roof line for the full size Ford and Falcon. This was a situation where they needed aerodynamicas and came up with a solution that sold like hot cakes. While Chevy's and Pontiac's roofline wasn't a true "notchback" (like the 1962 Ford) they weren't as good as the Fprd fastback roof.
I should mention that Plymouth had a true fastback roof in 1959/60/61 but lost it in 1962 and only had a true notchback in 1963. In 1964 they changed the backlite and made it better.
Look at the body styles and how long each manufacturer used them to get an idea of who had the best roofline and for how long. The true fastback was very much needed at high speed tracks, but at what expense?. At the very, very beginning of NASCAR and NHRA the manufacturers weren't into building "special" body style just used for racing, that would come down the road.
Those first years, 1959 to 1963 were VERY exciting as far as stock car racing went, and keep in mind, during those years the cars WERE stock cars!. As in STOCK cars!. Driving them at 150-160mph had to take really, really big gonads!. And in tee shirts no less!.
Aerodynamically Chevrolet and Pontiac had aerodynamic roofs thru 1962 (except in Pontiac didn't have the "Bel Air" style roof in 62 I don't think.
Ford ran the T-bird body in 1959 with the 430 Lincoln motor, the square back roof drag was offset by the bigger motor. Then in 1960 Ford used the Starliner body (and in 1961). Both years were the hign point for Ford aerodynamically. In 1962 Ford didn't have a "fastback" type roof in production so attempted to get around the rules by puting a 1961 roof on a 1962 body but it wasn't production and had to be cobbled up at any rate, NASCAR wouldn't let them run it (?).
1963 was Fords year as they came out with the "fastback" roof line for the full size Ford and Falcon. This was a situation where they needed aerodynamicas and came up with a solution that sold like hot cakes. While Chevy's and Pontiac's roofline wasn't a true "notchback" (like the 1962 Ford) they weren't as good as the Fprd fastback roof.
I should mention that Plymouth had a true fastback roof in 1959/60/61 but lost it in 1962 and only had a true notchback in 1963. In 1964 they changed the backlite and made it better.
Look at the body styles and how long each manufacturer used them to get an idea of who had the best roofline and for how long. The true fastback was very much needed at high speed tracks, but at what expense?. At the very, very beginning of NASCAR and NHRA the manufacturers weren't into building "special" body style just used for racing, that would come down the road.
Those first years, 1959 to 1963 were VERY exciting as far as stock car racing went, and keep in mind, during those years the cars WERE stock cars!. As in STOCK cars!. Driving them at 150-160mph had to take really, really big gonads!. And in tee shirts no less!.
M
MK IISS
Guest
Tuesday I spent quite a bit of time doing research on the '61 Ford top deal. Looked at books at the library and went to a large book store in the Tampa Bay area. I found several articles on the Atlanta race that claim the '61 style top was used, plus other write-ups on the race that did not mention anything about the top. I did not find any photos of Lorenzen's winning car. So I guess we may never know for sure one way or the other. I did come to the conclusion you can NOT determine anything by an article that does include a picture. I found that race reports often use the same photo of the winners car over and over again for different races. In other words it is simply a file photo.
I do know this for certain. Even though auto journalists refer to the top as a "61 top" it was not a top cut off a '61 Ford. The top was a replica of the '61 top made of fiberglass with a Ford part number. There is a website I mentioned in an earlier post,www.62ford.com/registry/better_ideas.asp scroll down to starlift
I do know this for certain. Even though auto journalists refer to the top as a "61 top" it was not a top cut off a '61 Ford. The top was a replica of the '61 top made of fiberglass with a Ford part number. There is a website I mentioned in an earlier post,www.62ford.com/registry/better_ideas.asp scroll down to starlift
Always wondered
I always wondered why/how those last few "thin pillared aerodynamic tops" made it to those 1962 Belair Sport Coupes (I recall Tommy and Wrench and some others just hate that word "bubbletop") in that last production run. Soemone had mentioned that they might have been left over from 1961 production and Chevy, being the frugal folks they were, just put them on a few thousand cars to get rid of them. Or was it driven by performance expectations? Or a combination of the two?
Fran/Richard/etal, do any of you have any jist on this topic (just for the Chevy line)?
After my first car (1961 BelAir) I then had a 1961 Pontiac StarChief, and I always thought the 1961 Ventura/Catalina/Bonneville in two door trim with slimline top had a great look. I think Tommy will agree with me. Fran is correct, as I recall, that the top didn't make it into Pontiac's 1962 lineup. My older brother had a 1962 Pontiac Grand Prix, black over white, with buckets and console. Very nice car, great lines (for a big car) but not a "bubbletop" (oops, there's that word again!).
I have been tracking 1961 Pontiac 2 doors with the slim "C" pillar for a bit, and they are pricey, just like the 1962 BA Sport Coupe. I think the ultimate would be to find or clone a 1961 Super Duty Pontiac 2 door. I've seen a 1963 SD clone and it went for high dollars (on Ebay about a month ago).
Tommy, how would one of those look next to your collection of 1961 Impala SS cars? All you would need would be the Ford to accompany them.
Cheers,
TomK
I always wondered why/how those last few "thin pillared aerodynamic tops" made it to those 1962 Belair Sport Coupes (I recall Tommy and Wrench and some others just hate that word "bubbletop") in that last production run. Soemone had mentioned that they might have been left over from 1961 production and Chevy, being the frugal folks they were, just put them on a few thousand cars to get rid of them. Or was it driven by performance expectations? Or a combination of the two?
Fran/Richard/etal, do any of you have any jist on this topic (just for the Chevy line)?
After my first car (1961 BelAir) I then had a 1961 Pontiac StarChief, and I always thought the 1961 Ventura/Catalina/Bonneville in two door trim with slimline top had a great look. I think Tommy will agree with me. Fran is correct, as I recall, that the top didn't make it into Pontiac's 1962 lineup. My older brother had a 1962 Pontiac Grand Prix, black over white, with buckets and console. Very nice car, great lines (for a big car) but not a "bubbletop" (oops, there's that word again!).
I have been tracking 1961 Pontiac 2 doors with the slim "C" pillar for a bit, and they are pricey, just like the 1962 BA Sport Coupe. I think the ultimate would be to find or clone a 1961 Super Duty Pontiac 2 door. I've seen a 1963 SD clone and it went for high dollars (on Ebay about a month ago).
Tommy, how would one of those look next to your collection of 1961 Impala SS cars? All you would need would be the Ford to accompany them
.Cheers,
TomK
Richard,
I have also been doing some checking and have found about the same as you, references to Lorenzen winning the race but no actual photo's of the car. I believe it was the Atlanta race, this is the first time that I've found some thing that I feel is incorrect in the books, 40 Years of Stock Car Racing. For the most part, these books are made up of actual newspaper clippings from the time. That is not the case with the 62 Ford with the "funny top". This section of the book is not a newspaper article, just a section written by the author and I believe it's incorrect, .
I did find a site on the internet that offered a video of the 62 Atlanta race for 25 dollars, I guess buying that might answer the question.
I guess the reason that I always thought it was a 61 top welded on a 62 car was; this was a regular thing to do back then, NASCAR also had the convertible division and the guys would just cut the top off to run that division, then weld it back on to run the regular races. In fact, if I remember correctly, NASCAR allowed you to run one regular race with the top off after competing in a convertible so it was not uncommon to see a convertible or two running in a regular race. Another reason I thought it was a metal top was; NASCAR didn't allow fiberglass body parts and perhaps this is one of the reasons they outlawed it.
Anyway, it's been fun talking about it, brings back lots of memorys. The guy who I worked for back then, Worth McMillion, is still a close friend and might could answer my questions but he's in his eighties now and he's hard to talk to, after being around race cars all his life, he can't hear and he won't won't wear a hearing aid.
While we're talking about Starliners, mine is complete and is going to it's first show this weekend, a statewide AACA show, I plan to take it to Hershey this fall.
Fran,
You're correct, in 62 the cars were pretty much still stock but it didn't last much longer. It all started changing when Ford came out with the new chassis design in 65, most all of the race cars started using their front end stuff then, no matter what make of car it was. We took delivery of a new 62 Pontiac in the early spring of 1962, by the time the car was completed, it was early summer, the first race was Daytona in July of 62. Didn't make the race, motor seized up on the qualifing lap. But anyway, the car was pretty much stock, we started with a brand new car, took the body off the frame, rewelded all the welds, narrowed the rear frame rails for tire clearance, sent the rear to Holman Moody and had floaters installed and we used floater hubs on the front. the body was put back on the frame and the roll bars were welded in, used the bench seat, just took the back off the passenger side. Actually used the 3 speed transmission with the column shifter. Actually, the first race we went to was Charlotte but they didn't even let us through inspection, in those days, Pontiac was in their heyday and you had to know somebody to get one of the SD motors, as I said, I worked for Worth McMillion, an indenpendant racer and he had taken a 30 day leave of absence from work and went out to Highland Indiana and worked for Ray Nichols to learn how to set up the car during the winter, he ordered this 62 Pontiac and it came in about the time he got back from working for Nichols but Pontiac wouldn't sell him a motor so he decided he would embarrass them by taking the car to a race with the little stock (2 barrel carb and single exhaust) motor. It worked, NASCAR wouldn't let us even take the car on the track but the Pontiac guys were impressed with the appearance of the car and the following week, a SD motor was delivered to his shop. I think NASCAR's chief inspector, Norris Friel may have helped also as he and Worth seemed to get along pretty good........
I'm sorry, long and boring story, you gotta remember, I was a 18 year old kid then, just out of high school and happen to live just down the road from a race shop. Not many people are so lucky as to have grown upin the sixties, much less near a race shop. I will always be indebted to Worth, he changed my life forever. Like I said, this stirs the memory. Sorry for rambling......
I have also been doing some checking and have found about the same as you, references to Lorenzen winning the race but no actual photo's of the car. I believe it was the Atlanta race, this is the first time that I've found some thing that I feel is incorrect in the books, 40 Years of Stock Car Racing. For the most part, these books are made up of actual newspaper clippings from the time. That is not the case with the 62 Ford with the "funny top". This section of the book is not a newspaper article, just a section written by the author and I believe it's incorrect, .
I did find a site on the internet that offered a video of the 62 Atlanta race for 25 dollars, I guess buying that might answer the question.
I guess the reason that I always thought it was a 61 top welded on a 62 car was; this was a regular thing to do back then, NASCAR also had the convertible division and the guys would just cut the top off to run that division, then weld it back on to run the regular races. In fact, if I remember correctly, NASCAR allowed you to run one regular race with the top off after competing in a convertible so it was not uncommon to see a convertible or two running in a regular race. Another reason I thought it was a metal top was; NASCAR didn't allow fiberglass body parts and perhaps this is one of the reasons they outlawed it.
Anyway, it's been fun talking about it, brings back lots of memorys. The guy who I worked for back then, Worth McMillion, is still a close friend and might could answer my questions but he's in his eighties now and he's hard to talk to, after being around race cars all his life, he can't hear and he won't won't wear a hearing aid.
While we're talking about Starliners, mine is complete and is going to it's first show this weekend, a statewide AACA show, I plan to take it to Hershey this fall.
Fran,
You're correct, in 62 the cars were pretty much still stock but it didn't last much longer. It all started changing when Ford came out with the new chassis design in 65, most all of the race cars started using their front end stuff then, no matter what make of car it was. We took delivery of a new 62 Pontiac in the early spring of 1962, by the time the car was completed, it was early summer, the first race was Daytona in July of 62. Didn't make the race, motor seized up on the qualifing lap. But anyway, the car was pretty much stock, we started with a brand new car, took the body off the frame, rewelded all the welds, narrowed the rear frame rails for tire clearance, sent the rear to Holman Moody and had floaters installed and we used floater hubs on the front. the body was put back on the frame and the roll bars were welded in, used the bench seat, just took the back off the passenger side. Actually used the 3 speed transmission with the column shifter. Actually, the first race we went to was Charlotte but they didn't even let us through inspection, in those days, Pontiac was in their heyday and you had to know somebody to get one of the SD motors, as I said, I worked for Worth McMillion, an indenpendant racer and he had taken a 30 day leave of absence from work and went out to Highland Indiana and worked for Ray Nichols to learn how to set up the car during the winter, he ordered this 62 Pontiac and it came in about the time he got back from working for Nichols but Pontiac wouldn't sell him a motor so he decided he would embarrass them by taking the car to a race with the little stock (2 barrel carb and single exhaust) motor. It worked, NASCAR wouldn't let us even take the car on the track but the Pontiac guys were impressed with the appearance of the car and the following week, a SD motor was delivered to his shop. I think NASCAR's chief inspector, Norris Friel may have helped also as he and Worth seemed to get along pretty good........
I'm sorry, long and boring story, you gotta remember, I was a 18 year old kid then, just out of high school and happen to live just down the road from a race shop. Not many people are so lucky as to have grown upin the sixties, much less near a race shop. I will always be indebted to Worth, he changed my life forever. Like I said, this stirs the memory. Sorry for rambling......
M
MK IISS
Guest
Tommy: I always enjoy your posts with the NASCAR history. Please do more. I believe the cars that were raced with the top on/top off were referred to as "zipper cars".
early NASCAR
Hey, guys, I enjoy the heck out of all this stuff you are posting. Very interesting. Even the give and take. We didn't get much NASCAR coverage here in Ohio. Just if and when ABC sports decided to show it. Daytona was always a delayed broadcast. to you guys that lived it, bring on more. To the others that might think this is nasty at times, I have had lunch with Fran and Richard several times. Always gentlemen. I cherish their friendship. Both truly nice fellows. They might seem to go for the jugular, but they ARE friends.
Point of this post is, keep up the good work. This is all very interesting to me. Didn't remember the top deal Ford pulled. Have heard of other stuff that was done. Those were the days, my friends. Has gotten way too high tech. Heck, they spend $100,000.00 to find 3 horsepower, today.
Love these posts. Please keep them coming so us other old guys can learn what went on in NASCAR that we never heard about.
Fred
Hey, guys, I enjoy the heck out of all this stuff you are posting. Very interesting. Even the give and take. We didn't get much NASCAR coverage here in Ohio. Just if and when ABC sports decided to show it. Daytona was always a delayed broadcast. to you guys that lived it, bring on more. To the others that might think this is nasty at times, I have had lunch with Fran and Richard several times. Always gentlemen. I cherish their friendship. Both truly nice fellows. They might seem to go for the jugular, but they ARE friends.
Point of this post is, keep up the good work. This is all very interesting to me. Didn't remember the top deal Ford pulled. Have heard of other stuff that was done. Those were the days, my friends. Has gotten way too high tech. Heck, they spend $100,000.00 to find 3 horsepower, today.
Love these posts. Please keep them coming so us other old guys can learn what went on in NASCAR that we never heard about.
Fred
brisbane47
Well Known Member
real61ss
Norris Friel: Now there is a name that brings back a LOT of memories, good and bad, from the 61/63 time frame. He had his hands full with the smokey clan so we were able to do a few modifications to the independent (test) car entered under the name of Tommy Irwin. Mr. Friel had smokey bring the engine, and nearly everything else to the garage in a box so he could look at it before it went together!! I managed to get a much larger cubic inch engine past him after we destroyed the initial engine on purpose in practice. If you were not a "big" name they did not pull every valve, check every spring, and go over the engine completely. I had it in a crate so they could check the bore and stroke on two cylinders, which made them happy..There were a lot of things going on like that during that time frame, no P&G or anything like that. The engine used a Crower cam which gave up during the practice session and ended what chance I had to compete in the 500 in 62. I do remember getting chewed out when I qualified for the Grand National License for not following their "so many laps at X speed" and so on. After all, what do short track people know?? Get it up to temperature--and nail it... I did get it up to 161.5 With Rex White right behind me, which was unheard of for a Chevrolet at that time. Pontiacs were going that fast, so I suppose it was a good thing that it did blow up or Mr. Friel would have been all over us. Funny you should mention his name, It kind of opened up another memory. Thanks, brisbane47
Norris Friel: Now there is a name that brings back a LOT of memories, good and bad, from the 61/63 time frame. He had his hands full with the smokey clan so we were able to do a few modifications to the independent (test) car entered under the name of Tommy Irwin. Mr. Friel had smokey bring the engine, and nearly everything else to the garage in a box so he could look at it before it went together!! I managed to get a much larger cubic inch engine past him after we destroyed the initial engine on purpose in practice. If you were not a "big" name they did not pull every valve, check every spring, and go over the engine completely. I had it in a crate so they could check the bore and stroke on two cylinders, which made them happy..There were a lot of things going on like that during that time frame, no P&G or anything like that. The engine used a Crower cam which gave up during the practice session and ended what chance I had to compete in the 500 in 62. I do remember getting chewed out when I qualified for the Grand National License for not following their "so many laps at X speed" and so on. After all, what do short track people know?? Get it up to temperature--and nail it... I did get it up to 161.5 With Rex White right behind me, which was unheard of for a Chevrolet at that time. Pontiacs were going that fast, so I suppose it was a good thing that it did blow up or Mr. Friel would have been all over us. Funny you should mention his name, It kind of opened up another memory. Thanks, brisbane47
Should Tommy and brisbane47 ever get together for a few days and write a book about their 1961 to 1965 NASCAR experiences, please let me know. I want to be the first customer.
Hitman,
You just brought up another another name from the past; Tommy Irvin. Another race shop that was fairly close to where I grew up, about 40 miles from us was Monroe Shook. Monroe Shook owned the 61 Chevrolet that Emanuel Zervakis drove on the GN circuit and Tommy Irvin took over when Emanuel went back to running the modified's. Wonder what ever happened to him.
Sounds like you were involved with a much more competive team than I was, we were just having fun. Worth, myself and the other guys who helped all worked regular jobs and worked on the race car at night. We tried to make at least one race a month, sometimes two. Monroe Shook owned a trucking company, Shooks Transfer, that's who delivered the Pontiac SD motor to us.
I always thought a lot of Mr. Freil, he looked out for me more than once. I was just a back packer trying to make enough money to get back home on. I was racing at Martinsville, guess it was 65 and I only had enough money to buy one set of tires, most of us independants either bought used tires from the factory teams or on short tracks like Martinsville, we ran recaps. So, I bought 4 recaps from the Goodyear truck, after the first practice, the NASCAR inspector measures one of my tires and it's too wide so they take it away from me. I started the car and pulled it out in the infield. Mr. Freil who is the Tech Director comes over to my car and says, hey boy, why have you got the car out here? I explain that they just took one of my tires and I don't have enough money to buy another and I can't afford to let them anymore of them or I won't be able to load the damn thing on the trailer to go home!!! You gotta remember, I'm a kid that just turned 21 and I don't know what to do. Mr. Freil told me to come with him and we went over to the Goodyear truck and he made Ross Hudgins take the other 3 recaps off my car and give me 4 new Goodyears and wouldn't let him charge me for them. You had to know Norris Freil to understand just what a character he was. Tuff, Tuff old man but really was a good guy. Also one of the few times I had 4 new tires at the same time!!!!!!
Well enough of that........
You just brought up another another name from the past; Tommy Irvin. Another race shop that was fairly close to where I grew up, about 40 miles from us was Monroe Shook. Monroe Shook owned the 61 Chevrolet that Emanuel Zervakis drove on the GN circuit and Tommy Irvin took over when Emanuel went back to running the modified's. Wonder what ever happened to him.
Sounds like you were involved with a much more competive team than I was, we were just having fun. Worth, myself and the other guys who helped all worked regular jobs and worked on the race car at night. We tried to make at least one race a month, sometimes two. Monroe Shook owned a trucking company, Shooks Transfer, that's who delivered the Pontiac SD motor to us.
I always thought a lot of Mr. Freil, he looked out for me more than once. I was just a back packer trying to make enough money to get back home on. I was racing at Martinsville, guess it was 65 and I only had enough money to buy one set of tires, most of us independants either bought used tires from the factory teams or on short tracks like Martinsville, we ran recaps. So, I bought 4 recaps from the Goodyear truck, after the first practice, the NASCAR inspector measures one of my tires and it's too wide so they take it away from me. I started the car and pulled it out in the infield. Mr. Freil who is the Tech Director comes over to my car and says, hey boy, why have you got the car out here? I explain that they just took one of my tires and I don't have enough money to buy another and I can't afford to let them anymore of them or I won't be able to load the damn thing on the trailer to go home!!! You gotta remember, I'm a kid that just turned 21 and I don't know what to do. Mr. Freil told me to come with him and we went over to the Goodyear truck and he made Ross Hudgins take the other 3 recaps off my car and give me 4 new Goodyears and wouldn't let him charge me for them. You had to know Norris Freil to understand just what a character he was. Tuff, Tuff old man but really was a good guy. Also one of the few times I had 4 new tires at the same time!!!!!!
Well enough of that........
brisbane47
Well Known Member
real61ss
I wasn't too much older than that when I fell into the undercover operation at Jim Rathmann's shop in Melbourne. I mostly worked with Rex White and Louie, but also spent a lot of time on the dyno at smokeys and down by the river at the Ray Fox facility. That was a good time for a Super Modified driver from Michigan.. Right place, right time.. And Generous Motors paid for it!!! See ya, brisbane47
I wasn't too much older than that when I fell into the undercover operation at Jim Rathmann's shop in Melbourne. I mostly worked with Rex White and Louie, but also spent a lot of time on the dyno at smokeys and down by the river at the Ray Fox facility. That was a good time for a Super Modified driver from Michigan.. Right place, right time.. And Generous Motors paid for it!!! See ya, brisbane47
M
MK IISS
Guest
I just received an email from a good friend who lives here in North Florida. Chris is a retired Ford dealer from Canada. During a period of about 10 years we went to a lot of NASCAR races and I think both Atlanta races, spring and fall, for at least 5 yrs in a row. He brought up a few good points about Atlanta. Atlanta was always known as a "Ford Track". Ford had a plant near by and the majority of the fans that went to the Atanta race were Ford fans. Atlanta even had a special covered seating area known as "The Ford Section" . There were always new Ford cars on display and Ford factory executives at the race. Many times members of the Ford family were even there. I can remember even when a GM car, such as Pontiac, was the offical NASCAR pace car of the year...at Atlanta it was always a Ford pacecar. In other words Ford spent a lot of money there.
His point is that if NASCAR would have given Ford a special concession to the rules, allowing them to run the '61 style top, it would have been at Atlanta. You might say: "what about the rules?" NASCAR is well known for breaking it's own rules if there is money involved. A good example is the 1963 season. A lot of fans, in 1963, bought tickets just to see that Chevrolet (Junior Johnson) run.
His point is that if NASCAR would have given Ford a special concession to the rules, allowing them to run the '61 style top, it would have been at Atlanta. You might say: "what about the rules?" NASCAR is well known for breaking it's own rules if there is money involved. A good example is the 1963 season. A lot of fans, in 1963, bought tickets just to see that Chevrolet (Junior Johnson) run.
M
MK IISS
Guest
MK II & Junior Johnson
Nutts, I almost forgot. My friend Chris told me that two summers ago he went to an NASCAR autograph signing promotion in N. Carolina. There were several current and retired drivers there including Junior Johnson. The '63 cloned Impala was also there. Johnson had a long line at his table because so many Chevy fans were asking him questions about his 1963 Impala. Chris overheard Johnson tell some of his fans that he did not use the "Mystery Motor" in all the races he drove in. On some of the dirt short track races he ran a 427 version of the 409. He indicated this was because they wanted to save the MK II for the larger tracks because they were running out of parts. I'm not claiming this is true...just passing the info on.
Nutts, I almost forgot. My friend Chris told me that two summers ago he went to an NASCAR autograph signing promotion in N. Carolina. There were several current and retired drivers there including Junior Johnson. The '63 cloned Impala was also there. Johnson had a long line at his table because so many Chevy fans were asking him questions about his 1963 Impala. Chris overheard Johnson tell some of his fans that he did not use the "Mystery Motor" in all the races he drove in. On some of the dirt short track races he ran a 427 version of the 409. He indicated this was because they wanted to save the MK II for the larger tracks because they were running out of parts. I'm not claiming this is true...just passing the info on.
"On some of the dirt short track races he ran a 427 version of the 409. He indicated this was because they wanted to save the MK II for the larger tracks because they were running out of parts. I'm not claiming this is true...just passing the info on."
Richard,
I'd say this is true. After Daytona, the fans wanted to see the Chevrolets run, promoters were paying lots of "deal money" for them to just show up so the guys were doing whatever it took to keep them running. I believe that Jr. kept the short track cars in N. Wilksboro while Ray Fox kept the speedway cars at his shop.
I do remember being at Hillsbrough N.C. in 63 (9/10 mile dirt) and looking at the motor in Jr.'s car and it had the Mystery motor in it but that was early in the season. I remember it having a Holly carb on it which struck me as odd because we ran the Carter on the Pontiac's.
It's no way the fans would have known what motor was in the cars, heck, most of them back then, didn't know the difference in the motors. As for that, not many people know the difference now, just this small group here.
Richard,
I'd say this is true. After Daytona, the fans wanted to see the Chevrolets run, promoters were paying lots of "deal money" for them to just show up so the guys were doing whatever it took to keep them running. I believe that Jr. kept the short track cars in N. Wilksboro while Ray Fox kept the speedway cars at his shop.
I do remember being at Hillsbrough N.C. in 63 (9/10 mile dirt) and looking at the motor in Jr.'s car and it had the Mystery motor in it but that was early in the season. I remember it having a Holly carb on it which struck me as odd because we ran the Carter on the Pontiac's.
It's no way the fans would have known what motor was in the cars, heck, most of them back then, didn't know the difference in the motors. As for that, not many people know the difference now, just this small group here.
Fran Preve
Banned
Tom: I agree on the 1961 Pontiac, I liked them too, still do, but 1960/1961 Pontiac's are getting up there in price.
Real: I agree it makes sense that they would run the "Z-11" motor at times for the reasons given (short tracks).
Tom: I'm sure using the bubble top for racing was thought of but they advertised that body style from day one in the Bel Air body style so that wasn't the ONLY reason. Something like 10,000 were built in 1962, and most I've seen were 6's and 283's. Logical, it was a "low line" hardtop. I've heard the number 600 tossed around for 409's, that seems high to me. The Bel Air hardtop cost about $100 less (sticker) than an Impala hardtop, not very much considering the Impala had the all new convertible like roof line. And the NADA shipping weight was within 50 lbs so the term "lighter weight" isn't factually true. The Bel Air was fractionally light with better aerodynamics so the engineers would prefer that body style, especially for NASCAR racing.
Just hacking the top off a hardtop to race it then welding it back on seems like a lot of work. How would lopping off the roof affect body rigidity?. I'd wonder if it was worth it. It would seem there was internal bracing on a convertible that wouldn't be there on a hardtop. Then again they could weld in all the extra bracing, couldn't hurt (except for weight) to have a more rigid hardtop body (when the roof was on). When did they stop racing convertibles in Grand National racing?. The class was dropped, when?.
Real: I agree it makes sense that they would run the "Z-11" motor at times for the reasons given (short tracks).
Tom: I'm sure using the bubble top for racing was thought of but they advertised that body style from day one in the Bel Air body style so that wasn't the ONLY reason. Something like 10,000 were built in 1962, and most I've seen were 6's and 283's. Logical, it was a "low line" hardtop. I've heard the number 600 tossed around for 409's, that seems high to me. The Bel Air hardtop cost about $100 less (sticker) than an Impala hardtop, not very much considering the Impala had the all new convertible like roof line. And the NADA shipping weight was within 50 lbs so the term "lighter weight" isn't factually true. The Bel Air was fractionally light with better aerodynamics so the engineers would prefer that body style, especially for NASCAR racing.
Just hacking the top off a hardtop to race it then welding it back on seems like a lot of work. How would lopping off the roof affect body rigidity?. I'd wonder if it was worth it. It would seem there was internal bracing on a convertible that wouldn't be there on a hardtop. Then again they could weld in all the extra bracing, couldn't hurt (except for weight) to have a more rigid hardtop body (when the roof was on). When did they stop racing convertibles in Grand National racing?. The class was dropped, when?.
M
MK IISS
Guest
I believe the convertible division was so popular because the fans could actually see the driver...see what it took to steer a race car. 1961 may have been the last year.
In addition, if it is true Junior Johnson raced his '63 Chevrolet in some of the races with a 427 based on the 409 engine design, the correct term or label in describing the engine would be a MK I 427 not a "Z11". I know, I'm splitting hairs here but it is the truth... and the actual term that should be used because "Z11' was an RPO code for a total package. And yes...this is my opinion which I have every right to express. I also base my opinion on this : "By default the W-engine series became the Mk I." Not my words but the words of some guy named Dick Keinath. More importantly I do not base my opinion on a piece of paper that is not on letterhead without a signature that could have been typed by anyone.
Also...if Junior was runnin' a 427 based on the 409 engine it was most likely a 427 by Junior..not a 427 by Chevrolet. In other words a homebuilt engine. He may have built a 427 out of a 409/400, retaining the 409 heads and intake. He may not have used the Z11 type head....probably didn't need to. A 409/400 with a 427 crank would be a pretty stout engine for a short track on dirt. I'm aware this is conjecture....not proven.
In addition, if it is true Junior Johnson raced his '63 Chevrolet in some of the races with a 427 based on the 409 engine design, the correct term or label in describing the engine would be a MK I 427 not a "Z11". I know, I'm splitting hairs here but it is the truth... and the actual term that should be used because "Z11' was an RPO code for a total package. And yes...this is my opinion which I have every right to express. I also base my opinion on this : "By default the W-engine series became the Mk I." Not my words but the words of some guy named Dick Keinath. More importantly I do not base my opinion on a piece of paper that is not on letterhead without a signature that could have been typed by anyone.
Also...if Junior was runnin' a 427 based on the 409 engine it was most likely a 427 by Junior..not a 427 by Chevrolet. In other words a homebuilt engine. He may have built a 427 out of a 409/400, retaining the 409 heads and intake. He may not have used the Z11 type head....probably didn't need to. A 409/400 with a 427 crank would be a pretty stout engine for a short track on dirt. I'm aware this is conjecture....not proven.
Fran Preve
Banned
Notice I put quotes around "Z-11", hmmmmm, why did I do that?. And the W engine was NEVER termed a "Mark I", or a "Mark" for that matter. The Mark I term came into play to describe the special head and 2 piece intake version of the W block, this was a Zora Duntov term, not a Dick Kieneth term.
Jr. probably made up 427's using the readily available 3.650 stroke crank and rods used in the quote "Z-11" 427 engine. The heads and intake as well as the crank and rods were available to racers, and others, over the counter. After all, we know there were single four barrel intakes for the drag race engine, and they were used on Mark I 409's late in the season in 1962, why not just add the 3.650 crank and rods to one of those 409's and you have a 427. But then what do I know.
I don't care what Dick Kieneth wrote 20 years after the fact, I base my statements on internal Chevy documents from the 60's, and conversations with engineers OTHER than Dick Keineth who were involved in the W and Mark IV projects back then. A couple of posters on this topic seem to agree with what I've said.
If the convertible division was dropped in 1961 why would they "lop off the top" of a 1962 or 63 car and build a "zipper" (?) car?.
if it's OK with you I'll continue to refer to the Mark Is engine as a quote "Z-11" engine. I THOUGHT it was obvious when I put the term in quotes when describing the engine most would see I refering to the engine ALONE and not the whole package.
Jr. probably made up 427's using the readily available 3.650 stroke crank and rods used in the quote "Z-11" 427 engine. The heads and intake as well as the crank and rods were available to racers, and others, over the counter. After all, we know there were single four barrel intakes for the drag race engine, and they were used on Mark I 409's late in the season in 1962, why not just add the 3.650 crank and rods to one of those 409's and you have a 427. But then what do I know.
I don't care what Dick Kieneth wrote 20 years after the fact, I base my statements on internal Chevy documents from the 60's, and conversations with engineers OTHER than Dick Keineth who were involved in the W and Mark IV projects back then. A couple of posters on this topic seem to agree with what I've said.
If the convertible division was dropped in 1961 why would they "lop off the top" of a 1962 or 63 car and build a "zipper" (?) car?.
if it's OK with you I'll continue to refer to the Mark Is engine as a quote "Z-11" engine. I THOUGHT it was obvious when I put the term in quotes when describing the engine most would see I refering to the engine ALONE and not the whole package.