need some 690 head advice

[SIXTY2BUBBLE]

hey guys

i am wanting to build my 62 bubbletop into a 409 clone and am fairly new to the 409 engines.
my 409 i have is a 63 qb block but the question i have is that one head is 583 casting and the other head is a 690 casting head. will this matter running wise, and will it hurt the value of the car.
also i know i have a 63 block, but should i be concerned with date codes being correct for car such as carbs posi unit and engine accessories. does it matter being that it is a clone?
with parts so expensive (i restored my nova for not much more than i have in this car so far and it's in pieces) i don't want to hurt the value.

thanks for any advice you can give me

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Those are tough questions. Since you are building a clone and the block is a 1963, I would not see any benefit in trying to make the other parts correct. Correct to what? 62 or 63? Build the car with parts you can afford and be honest with everyone. No sense trying to pass a clone off as real, unless you can spend a great deal of money. The 583 and 690 will work together, but I would offer to trade the 583 to one of the suppliers for a 690. A 62 bubbletop with a 2-4bbl carbs and a 4 speed is worth a great deal of money. It does not have to be correct for you to get a lot of enjoyment out of owning the car.

 

[4onthefloor]

Good advice.

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

The Frankenstein approach

It's really tough and somewhat expensive to get all 1962 parts for your '62 BA sports coupe. Since you've already got the 1963 "814" block, not the "068" 1962 block, you are on your way to build what I call "the period correct Frankenstein" . That means the parts are from an array of previous vehicles, but they are functionally equivalent, and you will have a great driver/collector car when you are done.

I took this approach. I used a 1964 truck block, 1963 "583" heads, 1963 intake with two aftermarket (Edelbrock) carbs, etc,. etc. It looks OK, runs good, and fits the car. It was never a 409 vehicle to begin with, I kept the original 283 and PG, so I wasn't worried about being "date perfect".

In the end it's up to you. If it's a '62 BA sport coupe, has a 409 four speed in it, with posi, it's worth a lot of dollars to the Ebay folks. Build it for yourself, you'll be happy with the results!

Cheers,
TomK

 

[models916]

Yep, KISS

I like the Frankenstein reference. Going to put it on my valve covers, parts from everywhere, year, size, shape, source.

 

[raymar58409]

Yeah, I'm gonna put "the ebay special on my valve covers"
Ray

 

[Bungy]

SIXTY2BUBBLE, You will need to check the installed height of the valve springs on those heads. The 690 and 583 are different. Not a big deal at all. You will just need to add shims under the springs on the 690 head to make it match the other.

 

[jim_ss409]

I know it sometimes feels like we're spending way too much on these cars, and maybe we are but the value keeps going up too. It would be great to have a date coded 62 engine but it'll still be a very valuable car anyways. 62 bubbletops are rare and so are high performance 409's.

 

[SIXTY2BUBBLE]

what to do what to do

hey guys--i appreciate all your input on this issue i'm having with the heads.
there is a member here who emailed me about swapping my 583 head for his 690 head as he has the same dilema i have.
the only problem i have with this is that my engine was a running engine when i bought it and not sure if it's worth taking the head off or not. and how will i know the condition of his head same as how will he know condition of mine, not to mention he's about 13 hours away from me and how would we do the swap?
i'm pondering this idea?
my biggest thing is that if i ever go to sell this car, will it turn off a potential buyer because of the two different number heads? i want to clone a 409 car, but i'd never try to pass it off as real as this is against my nature and i wouldn't want to hide anything from someone. just not sure what to do
sometimes i feel like i got in over my head with the 409's as i don't have a lot of knowledge about them--i'm in the learning stage.
smallblocks and novas is what i know, but have loved the bubbletops and 409's forever.
when i see one at a show, i just can't get enought of them. girlfriend has to pull me away
i'm sure glad i joined this site as there are so many knowledgeable people here and you guys sure have some beautiful cars!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks for any input you guys give me--shawn

 

[SS425HP]

heads

Nobody will know what head is which without pulling a valve cover. Not something to worry about. Run it like it is. If the springs are the same seat pressure, which they probably are, you have nothing to worry about.

 

[desapience]

I think you might benefit from understanding a couple things about 609, versus 583 heads. One, the 583 is the more recent update of a 609 head, and one significant change was the increeased amount of "meat" under the valve spring seats in the 583's. This allowed for cutting deeper seats for taller sping heights, whereas if you try to cut into a 609's valve-spring seat area, voila, WATER JACKET TIME! Also, I've been told that the 583 castings used a higher nickle-content iron, which makes them a bit more resistant to pitting using today's high sulphur fuels. I've also been informed that trying to put hardened valve seats in 609's is a "NO-NO"! Again, if you try putting hardened seats in a 609 head, WATER-JACKET TIME!

But, with the alleged higher nickle content of the 583 castings, there is no need to have the hardened seats, just have half-way decent ones to begin with, and grind em'. Now, if some other knowledgable 409 guys out there can confirm this, or elaborate of these 609/583 differences, please feel free to send a PM to me.

Dr. D.

 

[threeimpalas]

T The 583 and 690 will work together, but I would offer to trade the 583 to one of the suppliers for a 690.

Since the engine wouldn't be a "numbers matching" engine, I'd do the opposite and trade the 690 for the mechanically superior 583.

...but that's just me.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Mike, You make a great point, I just figured since the 583s are more rare, that it would be cost effective to go the other way. But you are correct, if one has a choice , it would be the 583s

 

[mpris]

Desapience, my understanding was that the only difference in the 690 and 583 heads was the thickness at the spring seat. I have never heard anyone say anything about the nickel content of the head being higher. Where have you heard or received the information about the nickel content? As to the sulphur content of today's fuel, it is my understanding, as mandated by the Clean Air Act, that the gasoline being refined now contains much less sulphur (80% less) than in the past and will become even less in the future. As to putting hardened valve seats in the 690 heads, many of the top W engine builders do this on a regular basis with no problems.

Poocho

 

[SIXTY2BUBBLE]

great info guys

thanks everyone for your great input. i value your help greatly as i am new to 409's and maybe should have researched them a little more before i bought one for the bubbletop. i think i might wait and see how she runs with the way it is as the previous owner ran it that way. if i have any concerns , then i'll look for a 583 head as recommended. i was worried about hurting the value of the engine with keeping it this way.
i still have quite a few years i think before she sees the road. i have quite a bit of body work to do and looking for a house right now.
have to find a good sheetmetal guy (i think i did, but want to find out more about him before i commit my car to him) as i found out with my nova , seems that alot of shops promise the world but then don't deliver. with the bubbletop, i want it the best i can get it.
but amazingly i got the car cheap --not sure if they went up in price that much since 1.5 years ago or if i got a steal but i've seen ones worse than mine go for 3 times as much as i paid.
i really am humbled getting help from you guys as you have some killer cars
thanks again--shawn