New guy with a Z11

[Southtowns27]

Hi everybody, my name's Andy. I was talking to a good friend of mine and he told me that he had a 427 W motor that had been in storage for many years. His father owned a repair shop back in the 60's and 70's and had picked it up somewhere along the line. This was about 2 years ago and I had never heard of a 427 W motor. I just knew of the 348 and 409. I did a little research and found that the 427 W motor was a stroked 409 and was referred to as a Z11. I thought that sounded pretty cool, and being a racer, I've been after him ever since wanting to buy it. Well, I had to stop over at his house earlier today. He told me that he no longer had room to store it, realized he would never have time to do anything with it, and decided that it needed a good home. He gave it to me...yes, GAVE it to me. My jaw hit the floor. I'm picking it up next week. It's totally disassembled and unfortunately the heads got lost somewhere along the way. I checked the casting number on the block and it came up as 3830814. Is this really a Z11? Regardless this is still a cool motor. I know SBC's inside out and backwards, but like most people, know absolutely nothing about the W's. My plan right now is to build a street legal retro drag car....we'll see how it all pans out. I think the first step is to get the motor to my race engine builder. So now the real questions. What do I tell him to do with it? What should I do about heads? Cam? Reciprocating assembly? Induction? Etc etc.. I really am lost. Also, how many of these were made and during what years? Are there any hp and tq numbers for it? Thanks in advance for any info!!! This is going to be a loooong process and I'm sure I'll be asking lots of questions along the way.

 

[MRHP]

wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: . I don't think I can say anymore. You are truely a blessed man

 

[Bungy]

What you need to do is check the stamping at the front of the block to see if it was stamped as a Z-11. The regular 409 blocks and Z-11 are the same. The Z-11 has a longer stroke crankshaft. Check the casting number on the crank. What really makes a Z-11 a Z-11 are the unique heads and two piece intake manifold. If you don't have these then you basically have a 409 block. However if it's got the Z-11 crank it's definately worth something. Especially since you got it for free!

 

[fourspeed409]

If it is a Z11 block absolutly do not deck the block without figuring a way to preserve the stamping.
Shane

 

[Southtowns27]

Thanks for the replies...When I bring it home next week I'll check the stamping. What was a Z-11 stamped as anyway? 2 piece intake manifold? How's that work? I didn't notice when I looked at everything quick yesterday.

 

[IgnitionMan]

When I bought my complete car Z11, it had been a "racer" but the owner had made just ten passes with it, got married and the car sat for 6 years. It was in exellent shape, and all I had to do was tidy it up a touch.

I bought that car for $500.00, way back in 1977. I bought a lot of old musclecars from 1972 thru 1979, most in great condition, as they were considered to be not worth much, and gas hogs living in a gasoline crisis. I'm glad those cars are still around, instead of those people whom considered them expendable doing something like crushing them and bleeding automotive history off into oblivion.

I'd find a '63 and clone a Z11, tell people it is a clone, and honor that engine and car series.

 

[JokersBel]

If she's really a QM (according to our decoder) and that crank were true to the Z11, then you'd find yourself sitting very well. Someone out there has the remaining parts to complete as original and with an engine so rare, they'd be worth reintroducing together. I'd preserve it without delay, discontinue any and all machine work/overhaul and seek out what you need to complete as original. Or sell it to someone who can afford to find the heads and intake, and breather....

Didn't I hear someone got like 20000 for the breather alone or was I taken in by the rumor???

 

[Southtowns27]

Originally posted by JokersBel

Didn't I hear someone got like 20000 for the breather alone or was I taken in by the rumor???

Um..wow.. What parts were unique to the Z11? Obviously the crank due to the longer stroke. I know about the 2 piece intake. What breather are we talking about? What makes the heads special? Was the cam a special grind?

 

[Bungy]

The air cleaner for thr race Z-11s I beleive was the same as a regular production 2x4 setup without the center ring. Just the base, top, and filter element. The street versions had a cowl induction type. I think this is the version that alegedly brought 20 grand. Although that sounds quite high to me. The heads are also unique to the Z-11 and only the two piece intake will work with them. The camshaft however is the same as the later 2x4 engines.

 

[IgnitionMan]

Block, crank, rods, pistons, cam, heads, valves, springs intake manifold package, distributor (curve), carbs, exhaust mans as well, all different from production 409/409 and 409/425.

If using the top end from the Z11 on, say, a 409/425, heads will need intake manifold as well, intake ports are higher than any other W head.

There are other differences, although somewhat minor compared to the other stuff.

 

[jim_ss409]

Go to the "articles' section on the homepage there is some Z11 info there. If you find that this engine is indeed a Z11 you can probably get aftermarket aluminum heads from Lamar Walden. They would be expensive but still cheaper than trying to get a set of originals. Z11 stuff is extremely rare so there's a good chance that this could be a regular high performance engine, still a great score. Good luck.

 

[IgnitionMan]

In essence:

Block ID code change = different block

My original car has a cast iron short length header set, not stock mans, and they have never been off the car. They guy I bought the car off of said the car hadn't been apart at all, even with the 10 runs it ran, just valve covers to adjust valves, and he bought it new.

Same basic carbs, different jetting, not the same setup

Cam, yes, 2 degrees retarded over stock 409 cam, as far as I could tell from degreeing mine without taking it apart, and from factory manufacturing build line specs I have seen. It came in dead on spec.

So, those parts may well be same, but when installed and/or marked differently, different is in play.

No argument, mine runs just fine.

 

[oil4kids]

z11 Cam

Now I thought Z11 cam was 555/555 lift

the 409 425 504/515 lift and
the 409 /409 was 434/434 or was that just some old info i had

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

AAH, but Mark... a not so well known fact...
the post mid November 63 production 1964 425 HP 409 is the ACTUAL fastest regular 409 !
YES, it uses the .555 lift cam which was introduced simuntaneously with the "583" large port heads ( which have a deeper spring pocket to accommodate the .040"-.050" higher lift ).

Cam so called Z11 cam was used on the big horse 409 through the end of 1965 production, and subsequent service packages.

A friend of mine has a VERY COOL GM sevice bulletin which came out in January, 64. It gives instructions on how to tune/compensate for the eratic idle !
AAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



BTW, NHRA will let me use this cam, if I claim the 425HP instaed of 409.

 

[64ss409]

Here is a link to NHRA specs if any one wants to do some spec checking.

Ron
http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/engine/

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

hey Ron...

Here are just a few of the screw-ups on the NHRA site:

61 409 does NOT use 690/583 large port heads
61 was NOT available with 380/409HP engine
61 did NOT have a cam lift higher than .439"
There is no such thing as a .465/.495 ( or whatever that is you have published ) lift cam in a factory 409.... ever... any year
61 engine had 11.25:1 comp because of a slightly tighter head...not because of less block volume
63-65 340HP 409's do NOT have 11:1 compression. They are 10:1. Therefore, contrary to your published "official" piston acceptance list, the Ross piston PN 77563 that I had approved, is NOT acceptable for Stock in a 340HP engine.

I just posted this in a discussion on another site ( coincidence )

:

 

[SS425HP]

Z-11 heads

When I was at Curt Harvey's several years ago, he had a 62 and a 63 set of Z-11 heads and intakes. I remember he showed me the difference, and it was very subtle. There wasn't much to tell the difference. I think I would remember if there was something as obvious as the heat crossover being blanked, but I sure don't remember them being like this. Think there was a ridge or something like that, that was the difference. Nothing major.
I can say for sure, there is a difference between the 62 and 63 sets.

Fred

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Richard ... I may be over my head ( pun intended ) though. We never had Z11's here in Canada... I've never even seen a real one !
I DO have some good reference material though.
I have some excellent old pictures of a pair of Z11 heads. They definitely have the heat crossover port. I also looked in Alan Colvin's book. They also definitely had the heat crossover.... but it is blocked off .

sorry, that's all I know

 

[oil4kids]

Z11 PHOTO

When you see a Z11 close up you end up taking a second look and scratching your head, because it looks unusual- the heads are much taller then the 609/583 heads the 2 piece intake is so tall that it does not have that friendly 409 look. The intake and heads only have 2 bolt holes next to the intake port instead of 3. It looks more like a Pontiac 389/400 design to me.

 

[64ss409]

Aubrey

That was just a link to NHRA site. Yes I see they have some mistakes.

But I did not publish anything. Not sure what you meant.

No offense meant. Sorry.

Ron