Pulleys not lining up

[Clyde Waldo]

.............. The bottom of the wpp and the top of the csp are only separated by 71 thousands of an inch. I used my feeler gauges for this................ Carmine.

Glad you didn't have to do what I did to get clearance between the wpp and the csp on the truck 409 that I ran in my 55 T-Bird. I put that engine together using parts and pulleys from who knows from where and the wpp and csp touched each other and with the engine running made odd noise. Couldn't figure out how to lower the csp so I raised up the wpp. Being a rather thrifty person I removed the water pump and using a rat tail file elongated the bottom of the four water pump mounting holes so I could raise the water pump up just enough for the pulleys to not rub together and fixed the problem for no cost. Also orange juce cartons make fine water pump gaskets. I'm not cheap - I just don't have any money.

 

[Rickys61]

My wpp is a 2 groove but 1 piece. Suppose to be for a 409. Not sure its even possible, but could you measure your pulley from outside groove to outside groove. Where did you get yours from?? Thanks Rick. I just ordered what I think is the correct harmonic balancer and the power steering cast iron pulley from Show Cars. Just left the garage and have to say that there is something just not right. I have to be missing something somewhere. I can't seem to get a handle on it. I sit and study this for a good half hour at a time, many times, and still walk away confused. Lets just say the wpp and csp both line up perfectly. The bottom of the wpp and the top of the csp are only separated by 71 thousands of an inch. I used my feeler gauges for this. And how in the heck would ever get or change a fan belt without making it a major project by having to take something completely apart?? Just doesn't make sense to me. The new harmonic balancer is about 1/8" wider and may very well push the csp out for a better alignment. But, I don't see how it will change the closeness of the pulleys or installing belts. Not sure but I don't think GM designed it that way; or did they?? Unless I figure out something else or someone suggest something, guess I'll wait until the new parts arrive and make those changes. I just don't see anything significant happening, Carmine.

Also, I already ordered the spoked cast iron power steering pulley for the 409, but can someone tell me the difference between that and the solid steel one??? Thanks.

Carmine... It was tough to get the tape measure in there, but near as I can tell, the distance across the two grooves is 1 3/4" outside to outside. It looks like about 1 1/2" from the front face to the front of the front groove. It looks like our crank pulleys are the same. It seems to me, if all the pulleys are deep groove except the water pump, that might be where I would start first... Hope this helps.
Rick

 

[Carmine]

All 62 409's were solid lifter high HP and used the same balancer as 63-65 high HP like this:

View attachment 34496


The low hp 63-65 balancer was like this:

View attachment 34497 View attachment 34498


Make sure your water pump has the proper depth on the pulley hub:


View attachment 34499

Thanks Cecil for taking the time to post those pics. The harmonic balancer presently on the car is definitely the one in those bottom pics you supplied. I think it might be best for me to wait until the new parts arrive from Show Cars. That way everything is suppose to be correct and I have a fighting chance to get it right.

Rick, thanks for taking the time to measure.

Clyde, that was certainly an interesting experience. Thanks for sharing, Carmine.

 

[Carmine]

Well, my newly ordered harmonic balancer and 3 spoke cast iron power steering pulley arrived today. Didn't try the balancer on yet but I did eye ball in the pulley. I don't think I gained anything in comparison to the solid steel one. This one seems to be as far out as the other. Had me wondering if the ps pump I have is proper. It was off a sbc and both Show Cars and Hubbards list only one pump for '58-'72. I guess it all depends on what motor you will be mounting it on and the proper brackets. I previously ordered the 409 brackets but something isn't quite proper. On the upper bracket that should go against and be bolted to head, there is about a 1/2" gap. I had to make a spacer for this gap. I just don't think this is right. But, at the same time, there is no room to move the bracket back further, that bolts to the exhaust manifold. Maybe its best I go with the given; the water pump pulley and harmonic balancer. Guess I'll take it from there. I'll try to take some pics and post them, Carmine.

 

[Jim Sullivan]

Carmine, I had to use about the same thickness spacer for my power steering bracket. I used all small block pulleys and everything lined up good. Your 409 pulleys are a little different. The alternator drive pulley is right against the balancer(small block also with timing tape) and the power steering pulley is the furthest out. The center pulley is not used. Note the alternator is removed as I took my headers off for a repaint.

 

[Carmine]

Thanks for that pic Jim. I appreciate it. Guess I'm not too far off with having to use a spacer. I would have thought some instructions/directions would have come with the brackets for the amount of money they cost. Sometimes I get tired of guessing how things go together.

 

[IMBVSUR?]

Carmine, Don't give up, and keep the thread going. I have the same problems as your experiencing after my build. So I spaced everything. I believe mine were not lined up properly when I got it. And after the build I wanted it to run so I shimmed it. So I am getting lots of information from your thread, thanks.

 

[pvs409]

The deep groove 409 pulleys in this picture are 100 % original. The power steering pump has the correct 409 only PS pulley.
The belt routing to my knowledge is the way they were from the factory. I have done 2 factory original sets like this. The belts line up perfectly. You can do this 409 PS setup with pulleys
that are not deep groove pulleys

We are going to install another original 409 power steering set on a 61 Chevy 409 motor this weekend that does not have power steering, using all the same pulleys with an original 409 generator.
We are using reproduction Show Cars brackets for the pump and generator for the 61 409.. All PS pumps I think are the same (I have both ). The pump in these pictures is a
rebuilt original pump. The 600 series Borgenson steering box was removed after these pictures, and replaced with an orginal steering box. The harmonic blancer in these pictures is the correct depth to match an original high horsepower 409 balancer.
Paul

 

[pvs409]

Here is the set with the original steering box. This is an original pump and hose set up. Note the special stud on the headers,
you need this on regular exhaust manifolds also.
Paul

 

[Carmine]

Thanks Paul for those pics. I learned a few things from looking at them. Like the power steering pulley. I recently purchased the 3 spoke cast iron one for the 409 and I eyeballed it in quickly. Looked worse for alignment then the solid steel pulley. From your pics I saw that I had it on backyards. I know with me its hard to believe, but I did. Much better the other way lol.

Had a productive afternoon in the garage. I had previously bought a new 409 balancer and I tried getting the old one off. Like many of you, I have a puller for the balancer removal. Well, I worked on it and there was no way in hell that it would budge. I could hang from the wrench and it wasn't moving. So, I went to plan B. Put the new double pulley on the balancer and measured the difference the belt alignment grooves were off between the balancer and the wp pulley. Exactly 1/8". The balancer pulley had to be shimmed out. Found some 1/8" flat aluminum stock that I had laying around and decided to use it. Made a template of the front of the harmonic balancer indicating the holes that would be needed. Transferred this to the aluminum. Used a hole saw for the center and drilled and cut where needed. Trial fit a few times and finally had my home made shim. (I'm waiting for someone to tell me you can actually buy these. I wouldn't be surprised). I bolted the pulley back on and the shim seems to be perfect for alignment. I then put the ps pump pulley on the correct way and that lined up nicely. Next was the new brackets I bought for the alt. No instructions with these either. Took me a while but I think I figured it out. Quickly set the alt. in and that seems good to go. Next, will be measuring for fan belts. Going to look it over again tomorrow and then secure everything. Made some good progress. Hope to start it possibly next week. Have 2 friends coming over tomorrow for help with the hood and exhaust, Carmine.

 

[Last 60]

I knew you could do it!!!!!!!!!

Lonnie

 

[1961BelAir427]

Sounds like you've got it on the ropes Carmine! Like your home made crank pulley shim.

 

[pvs409]

here are 3 show cars shims with different thicknesses for water pump pulleys

http://www.show-cars.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6515
http://www.show-cars.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6516
http://www.show-cars.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6517

Paul

 

[Carmine]

here are 3 show cars shims with different thicknesses for water pump pulleys

http://www.show-cars.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6515
http://www.show-cars.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6516
http://www.show-cars.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6517

Paul

Saw those before but I wasn't sure they made anything for the crank pulley. I took a few pics of the power steering bracket. Slightly down from the top of the head is a black bracket that if left as is, would be about 5/8" or so from the face of the head and mounting hole. There is no way I don't think you would ever consider trying to bolt this in. No spacer came with the brackets and I do believe I have it on right. I made the spacer from a piece of pipe that I had. Part of the bracket also bolts onto the exhaust manifold and there is no where to go with that at all. I'm going to check it one more time before I tighten every thing, Carmine.

 

[Phil Reed]

No spacer Nick. You need an exhaust manifold bolt with a stud off the head to space the bracket out correctly. Just like the upper water pump bolt that the negative battery cable attaches to. The upper bracket does not touch the exhaust manifold. There is a picture in the assembly manual.

 

[Carmine]

OK Phil. Thanks. I will take a look at that. I do want it right.

 

[Carmine]

No spacer Nick. You need an exhaust manifold bolt with a stud off the head to space the bracket out correctly. Just like the upper water pump bolt that the negative battery cable attaches to. The upper bracket does not touch the exhaust manifold. There is a picture in the assembly manual.

I know the bolt you are talking about, but I don't have one. I looked for one with some vendors but couldn't find it. Phil, not sure what you mean when you say the upper bracket does not touch the exhaust manifold. Are you referring to the power steering pump bracket?? I looked through both my assembly and repair manual's, but what little I found was no help to me. Thanks.

 

[pvs409]

I have these studs in two different versions. One with a fixed nut(from Show Cars) and different length studs with allen wrench heads(hex head)- I add 3 moveable nuts to my studs. One too hold the manifolds the other two to hold the Power Steering bracket. They are in the picture I posted above - you can see two of the nuts in the picture- I can get a closer picture of the one on the car and the studs I have.

I never saw this before with the stud in any manuals when I started building 409's with factory style Power steering - I ended up finally seeing a 409 with the stud and nuts so I understood how the Power steering bracket is mounted to the exhuast manifold and the head on 409 power steering.
Paul

 

[Phil Reed]

The front lower exhaust bolt bolts the exhaust manifold to the head. The upper PS bracket slips on the threaded extension of the bolt and you install lock washer and nut. The bracket is spaced out from the manifold by the width of the bolt head. Just like the RH upper water pump bolt has the threaded extension for securing the negative battery cable. Different sizes but same principal.
Wheeeee...my finger is Tired! !!!!

 

[Carmine]

The front lower exhaust bolt bolts the exhaust manifold to the head. The upper PS bracket slips on the threaded extension of the bolt and you install lock washer and nut. The bracket is spaced out from the manifold by the width of the bolt head. Just like the RH upper water pump bolt has the threaded extension for securing the negative battery cable. Different sizes but same principal.
Wheeeee...my finger is Tired! !!!!

Don't let your finger get too tired. We're gaining on it .