Race Engine project planning

[1961BelAir427]

Okay, some of you may remember that I've had a rat motor in my 61 for most of the 24+ years I've owned it. It's been a track only car for the last 15 or so. (Mostly a barn only car. LOL) Well I have always wanted to build a nice 409 for it that will run at least close to what my old 433" is capable of. Mid 6's in the 1/8th mile @ 100 MPH which is around mid 10's @ 125-130 in the 1/4. Yes I know that is easily done with all the great parts available now, but I need to do it on a budget or it will never happen.
Well last night as I lay in bed (with pneumonia) bored out of my mind....I started browsing my local Craigslist (Macon/Warner Robbins) and ended up on the Savannah, GA section somehow. I never look there because it's about 3 1/2 hours away. Low and behold there is an ad over a month old for some W-motor parts - Brand New in the Box:
Edelbrock Heads #60819
Black Valve Covers # 41403
Black Aluminum Dual Quad Air Cleaner #41193
and Aluminum Water Pump #8858

A quick text revealed the parts were still available. It was a package deal and I got them for a price I couldn't afford....or afford to pass up. I have sent a paypal deposit and we are meeting at a local track in a couple weeks so I can pick everything up.

 

[1961BelAir427]

I started this thread to use for a reference for parts/ part numbers, build plans, etc. along with the excellent advice ya'll always give. I'm going to list what I have in mind and will change/update this list as things change or I hear of a better way from our great members here.

First of course is the block. I have only had one W block in my life and it is a 348 truck block that the previous owner said has been bored to 4.312" and sonic checked. I want to just trust in that and put it together, but many posts on here have me skeptical about it taking that much bore and living for long so I am going to try to find someone around who can sonic test it. For the meantime I am just going to assume that I am going to need to find a good 348 block or even better a 409 truck block.
I have a 409 crank, rods, and factory standard bore HP forged pistons, but unless the 348 block checks okay I plan on selling all of that and going with a Scat or Eagle 4" crank, Scat I-Beam Rods (6.135" or 6.385"??) with capscews, and of course forged pistons. I will be shooting for about 13:1 CR and cubic inches, etc. will have to depend on what block I end up with. I am not at all opposed to a 434" stroker using a 348 block.
I am thinking I'll finish it up with:
Edelbrock heads (with a spring upgrade)
Solid Roller Cam with 265* - 270* I / 270* - 280* E duration @ .050" and as much lift as I can clearance the block and pistons for. Probably in the .725" area I'm thinking. Ground on a 108* to 110* LSA and istalled 4* advanced.
Big block chevy roller rockers (I have a few sets available.)
Stef's aluminum oil pan
2" primary tube Fenderwell Jardine Headers. My car doesn't have inner fenders and I like that I could snatch the engine out the top without disconnecting them at all.
Induction: Hopefully one of Aubrey's Speed Port 7000 single planes along with the HP950 carb I use now.
I may try an Edelbrock 2x4 intake with some carb spacers and (2) 750 cfm #1407's. I already have the carbs and spacers for that set-up.

Thoughts/Opinions/Comments much welcomed.....even negative ones.

 

[1961BelAir427]

I also NEED to add one more note:
I would have loved to go with a set of Bob's (BWR) aluminum heads instead of the Edelbrock and if you'd asked me even yesterday which I'd purchase and support if I ever got the chance it would be Bob hands down. The simple fact of the matter is I found a good deal and had to take it. Perhaps one day I can afford to upgrade!!

 

[Skip FIx]

Sounds close to my 470" combo. 4.325 bore '65 409 block (as minimal clean up as we needed) 4" Eagle crank & 6.385 rods. JE pistons 10.25:1 -pump gas motor. E heads we went a little bigger on the intake valve and did some moderate porting. Howards cams roller springs. Comp SS BBC 1.7 rockers.Bullet/Ultradyne solid roller 251/251 @ 0.050 112 LS 108 IC-they were the only ones with a solid roller core that did not have the 4-7 swap. Comp Endurex lifters. Edelbrock dual quad intake-flows way better than the factory dual quad. 1" 4 hole spacers 600 cfm Edelbrock/AFB style carbs. Jardine 2-2 1/8 tri ys. Stef's pan with screen tray. Balck finned Edelbrock valve covers, Edelbrock water pump.

604 HP-bigger cam and more compression should net you more and get you there for sure.

Lost HP with the 750 carbs we tried.

 

[yellow wagon]

Those 434" strokers really run so I like that motor combination for sure. 13:1 compression is good too. Heads will need some work for maximum flow. Cam seems pretty good too. Aubrey's intake should make great HP and can always add a spacer to that even if need be. Sounds like a fun project!

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Good luck with your project. I doubt you will achieve a net 13 to 1 unless you spend big bucks on custom pistons such as BSL is using. Sure, you can order 13 to 1 pistons but the final net ratio is always less. The 348 block will need block work to get the valve to block clearance you will need. With a 409 truck block you can get away with .730 lift but it must be checked anyway. I don't believe you can run mid 6s with unported Edelbrock heads. There are some great head porters out there who can improve them so they can support the hp you will need to run that strong but there goes another bucket of cash. Easy to run mid 6s with aftermarket parts?? I would disagree. Its never easy. 6.385 rods ? , yes, for sure. I would bet Aubrey's intake will outperform the Edelbrock intake so that is a good idea. Again, good luck, we always enjoy watching a new build come together.

 

[1961BelAir427]

Thanks for the comments. Please keep them coming. I have thought a lot about having the Edelbrock heads ported and I know SD Performance has a CNC pattern for $1000. There is a shop near me who does excellent work and has been in business for many years......I just doubt they have any experience with Edelbrock 409 heads. Maybe not with W - motors at all. http://www.killiansportingservice.com/ I have many friends who have used them and seen proven gains on the track. Should someone very knowledgeable in porting all brands of heads be fine tackling these or do I need to look for a 409 porting specialists?

 

[1961BelAir427]

Thanks Skip Fix. Your combo plus more compression and 4 into 1 headers should be about right. I only mentioned the 750 carbs because I have had a pair sitting new in the box for several years now. Maybe I could swap them for 600's with someone. I'd love the look of a dual quad 409, but think it might make more power with the 950 and one of Aubrey's single planes.

 

[62impala409]

Thanks for the comments. Please keep them coming. I have thought a lot about having the Edelbrock heads ported and I know SD Performance has a CNC pattern for $1000. There is a shop near me who does excellent work and has been in business for many years......I just doubt they have any experience with Edelbrock 409 heads. Maybe not with W - motors at all. http://www.killiansportingservice.com/ I have many friends who have used them and seen proven gains on the track. Should someone very knowledgeable in porting all brands of heads be fine tackling these or do I need to look for a 409 porting specialists?

BEWARE of mission creep!!!! What is the price difference between your less than retail Eddy heads that would need a 1K port job or Bob Walla's new heads? I am not aware of Bob's prices. Leo

 

[1961BelAir427]

I know what you mean. I can't find any definite prices on Bob's heads and I'm sure it depends greatly on how they are spec'd, but I'm surprised there aren't any basic package prices (that I can find). If I remember correctly, I have seen him say on here that a complete set should be under 4 grand unless you went with titanium valves. The local porter I mentioned (there is a red 62 pro street / race car on their home page linked above...but it's a SBC) charges $500 to completely port Intake/Exhaust, and Combustion Chambers. Wonder if I'd get a break since there would be no chamber work?
Stock E head flow is listed around 277 I / 222 E. The SD cnc'd heads are listed @ 330-340 I / 260 E. Most all the flow numbers I've seen for Bob's heads are in the 360 cfm range, but that was after porting.
I'd bet my local porter could get me close to the CNC'd Edelbrock head flow numbers, but that to is speculation based on SBC/BBC/SBF work I have seen of theirs.
Is a billet roller cam really going to cost me $450? I know there isn't a huge market, but WOW.
Also I read that there are 2 different Stef's oil pans. One for 348 & one for 409? What is the difference? Is it dipstick location like on stock pans? EDIT: Found out Stef's 348 pan is 6 quarts with filter & 409 pan is 7 quarts with filter.
Show Cars lists a 2 piece bare steel timing cover for a good price. Handy to be able to change cam timing without dropping the oil pan. Anyone have experience with them?

 

[1961BelAir427]

What about 4.25" stroke? I see there are 4.25" stroke cranks (Scat or Eagle) and Ross makes 12:1 409 pistons for .030" - .060" overbore for the 4.25" Stroke & 6.385" Rods. The cost difference compared to a 4" stroker crank is minimal. Is it extremely difficult to get the rods to clear the pan rails at this level without breaking into water or oil passages? I don't remember ever reading about anyone building one of these?
Sorry that I seem to be filling up my own thread, but being laid up in bed has me bored and the internet is HUGE!!

 

[CDNpontiac409guy]

Personally, I think 4.25" stroke ( which HAS been done ) is unproductive. The heads, the runner path, will only do so much. Huge cubic inches will just turn it into a "diesel-like" torque monster, with low RPM, and slow to get there.
I still prefer 427 crank ( 3.766" stroke ).
Yes, steel billet roller camds are costly. Pistons ? No doubt, special order, custom dome, COMPLETELY lightened.
Mid 10's is easier done by going on a diet ! ( ALL unnecessary body/car weight removed, light weight components used where possible and required ).

 

[1961BelAir427]

I have done a lot of lightening over the years and the car has gotten progressively more drag oriented while looking mostly stock. Heater/Radio/Lighter Delete, plus Fiberglass hood, fenders, front bumper, pin-on trunklid, and no inner fenders. I have stock bench seats in storage and have a pair of 62 SS buckets in it now. I usually remove the passenger seat before a race. I tried an aftermarket light weight seat at one point, but the discomfort wasn't worth the 20-25 pounds it saved. I have an S&W 8 point rollbar kit with swing-out door bars that hasn't been installed yet. Long tail TH400 with 8" convertor, one-piece drive shaft, 12 bolt with 4.88's on a spool, dual upper adjustable control arms with custom brackets to allow adjustment at the frame side, adj. panhard bar, Metco billet lower arms, rear Aluminum coil-over shocks with a bolt-in crossmember I designed that requires no frame or body mods. Moroso "Trick" springs on the front with 3 way adjustable shocks. No sway bar. Everything has been bolt-on (or bolt-off) except for some clearancing of the driveshaft tunnel.
I run an Ebay 2 core aluminum radiator with dual 10" electric fans, an electric water pump (on the bbc) and no engine accessories except for an alternator. Stock gas tank with dual 1/2" NPT bungs, dual -8AN lines with filters run to a Y-block at the Holley HP150 pump and then -10AN pushloc hose all the way to the regulator mounted on the carb inlet.

 

[chevytaylor]

Personally, I think 4.25" stroke ( which HAS been done ) is unproductive. The heads, the runner path, will only do so much. Huge cubic inches will just turn it into a "diesel-like" torque monster, with low RPM, and slow to get there.
I still prefer 427 crank ( 3.766" stroke ).
Yes, steel billet roller camds are costly. Pistons ? No doubt, special order, custom dome, COMPLETELY lightened.
Mid 10's is easier done by going on a diet ! ( ALL unnecessary body/car weight removed, light weight components used where possible and required ).

How about with Bob's raised port heads or Lamar Z-11 heads Aubrey? Nothing wrong with a torque monster. I only shift at 5600rpm, 3850 pound race weight and run high 11.0's - 11.2"s @ 120 plus with 476 cubes. The only substitute for cubic inches is more of em

 

[1961BelAir427]

True.....I've seen 502-540 bbc's that ran about the same as my 433" but they had a lot less cam, compression, and no better heads than mine. On the one hand I'd be ticked if I built an engine that large and didn't run any faster, but at the same time......it might be nice to have slightly better manners. High compression / BIG solid roller motors can be fussy.
If I can't get but so much (277 cfm stock OR 330 cfm ported) out of my heads, wouldn't it be best to just build as much cubic inches as I could get? A .060" over 409 with a 4.25" stroke comes out to 509" (okay actually 510" but it sounds better) plus more stroke equals more compression given the same piston and chamber size. It looks like the difference in cost would be less than $250 between 4" & 4.25" crank and pistons. Balancing costs should be about the same.

 

[yellow wagon]

And less RPM means the motor should live a LONG time

 

[Ishiftem]

More inches with limited air flow will just move the rpm band lower and make more torque. I don't really think the 4.25 would be worth it. I run a 4" and and go 10.80s shifting at only 6300. Would the 4.25 balance without adding heavy metal(mallory)? That could get expensive.

 

[chevytaylor]

Hey Aubrey. Have you got a photo of the pistons and rods you sent over to me that are in my current engine? Some really nice stuff man, thought it would be cool to show the guys. As you explained to me a couple of years back, to make these stroker motors run you have to be smart with the reciprocating gear . I've still got allot in the bag but can't run under 11.00 seconds as my car is not legal to do so in ANDRA racing.

 

[1961BelAir427]

Okay some slight revisions, but here is the current run down/ wish list:
Please point out any interchange mistakes I've made.
409 Truck Block (Hopefully) or 348 Block
Scat or Eagle 4" crank $725
Scat I-Beam Rods 6.385" with 7/16" capscews $320
Forged pistons. I will be shooting for about 13:1 CR. $750
(Compression and cubic inches, etc. will have to depend on what block I end up with.)
I would love a 409 truck block, but am not at all apposed to a stroker using a 348 block.
File-Fit Moly Rings $125
Big block chevy rod bearings - already have
348/409 Main bearings - H series $240
ARP Main Studs $80
Fel Pro # FS8007PT-3 Gasket Kit - $110
Balancing $250
Cam Bearings $35
348/409 HD #IS55-A oil pump driveshaft - $15
Big Block chevy roller cam button and cam lock plate - already have
Double - True Roller Timing Set $65
Show Cars 2 piece stamed steel timing cover $115
Small block SFI approved 6.75" Balancer $130
Balancer bolt & washer - already have
Small block fuel pump block-off plate - already have
Show Cars distributor adapter/sleeve so I can run my current ignition system $80
ARP Head Bolts for Edelbrock Heads $105
Edelbrock heads (As cast @ first, then CNC port work after 1-2 yrs when it's time to refresh) - already have
Herbert 1.550" Dual Springs - already have
195# @ 1.940" Closed, 600# @ 1.200" Open, 1.150" Coil Bind, .725" Max Lift - already have
Herbert 10* Titanium Retainers - already have
10* 11/32" Locks (Possibly the + .050" Ones if I need more installed height.) $20
Herbert Solid Roller Lifters $285
Correct Length 3/8" diameter .080" Wall Chromoly pushrods $160
Solid Roller Cam 265*-270*I/270*-280*E dur@.050" & around .725" Lift. 108* to 110* LSA & istalled 4* advanced. $450
1.7:1 Big block roller rockers: Crand Gold Aluminum OR Comp Cams Stainless - already have
Edelbrock black aluminum valve covers - already have
Stef's aluminum oil pan with integral windage screen $500
Intake Heat Shield - Homemade
Induction: Hopefully one of Aubrey's Speed Port 7000 single planes $700
Holley #80496 - HP950 carb - already have
Pro Comp Electric Water Pump $220
2" Fenderwell Headers $575
Melling oil pump - already have
Melling Oil pump pickup/screen - already have
________________________________________
Total $6055 (plus the price of a block and all machine work)

 

[Don Jacks]

The rear cam bearing must be drilled for the "W" engines oiling system.Pictures are availeable in a couple of build upson the web.This looks like a really good build,good luck with it Jason.