Ragan's '59 El Camino Rebuild Project

LMBRJQ 60

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 4
Thanks for putting together a rough sketch, filling in the void looks sharp.
I don't mind the suggestion at all. I do appreciate the time it takes, even for a rough sketch and doing the upload. The sketch is worth a thousand words.

I'd have to play with it to check on plug accessibility. I'm going to print the drawings out and have my guy take a look.

Hi Ragan,
Just a thought, have you got a spare head and valve cover lying around?
It might have been worth making up a wooden buck that the head sits on at the correct angle on your shop bench
then you can sit the coils around the area that you think is OK and just make wooden blocks etc to sit them on to get a visual idea
Might help and wood is easy to mess with to get things mocked up

Steve
 

303Radar

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Ragan, a dumb question on my behalf, has your chassis guy successfully modified frames with Jag rears before.

The reason I ask, I am not a chassis builder and I am more than willing to be proven wrong, I was of the understanding that a Jag rear worked well when the trailing arms/links were as long as original and went forward of the differential not back. Enlightenment on your rear set up would be interesting.

I took the frame to two different shops. The first shop specialized in race suspensions and had experience with Independent Rears. His focus wasn't so much the trailing arms as much as making sure the axle center lines were the same and the pinion angle was good. This shop had the frame for a year (long story) and placed the cross member in place and verified pinion angle was a positive 3 degrees. This is important for two reasons. The first is the most obvious, the drive shaft angle. The second was so the lower control arms are parallel to the ground, this allows the bearings to wear evenly. One the upside, he didn't charge me for welding in the cross member or the other work/measurements he did. And he was closing shop because he didn't have time to keep this work as his primary focus.

The second shop I took the frame too kept it three weeks. Last year, he put a 'vette IRS into a '61 or '62 Bel Air. He and I had some good discussions around the trailing arms and the shocks. In the end, he said the Jag was easier and didn't require as many modifications as the 'vette rear.

Because I like to be engaged with any shop I use, I did a lot of research on what works best and avoiding bind in the suspension. I did a lot of work on this site:
http://irsforum.boardhost.com/index.php

This research really came in handy and both shops liked my input/thoughts.

With the trailing arms, length isn't too big of a deal. The mounting points however, need to be done in a manner which doesn't bind, otherwise, a lot of wear will be caused on either the lower control arm bearings/bushings or the trailing arm mount points. Stock Jags didn't have this problem since they used rubber bushings on both ends of their trailing arm. This absorbed the bind, especially in non-high hp applications. In a lot of cases, trailing arms aren't needed. In my case, the are needed, badly. They will cut down on the wear on the lower control arms during acceleration. On a hard acceleration with lots of tire grip, the hubs could break. The trailing arms help strengthen the lower control arms by not allowing them to move perpendicular to the shock travel.. To prevent bind, the trailing arms must pivot on the same plane as the lower control arms. Otherwise, they push/pull the lower control arms as the suspension cycles.

The direction of the trailing arms is more of a clearance and aesthetic concern. Since I didn't have clearance to run them to the front (the frame got in the way), I decided to run them to the rear.
I will be running a total of four shocks, just like the stock Jag would have. Even though the El Camino isn't too heavy, the work required on the shocks is a lot.

Let me know if this answers your questions or sparks new ones. I'm happy to share what I've learned.
 

63 dream'n

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 4
Something else that might be helpful would be to make the coil pack holder a 2 piece design so that you could remove "the hat" so that the stud mounting wouldn't have to be messed with,also making plug changing/checking a....no big deal......
 

tripower

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
I'm definitely using studs to mount the heads. Ideally, it would be nice to not have to remove the bracket to access the plugs. I don't know how much longer of a stud is needed, but I'm sure ARP probably has something that can be used.
Buick Nailhead used a head bolt with a stud for accessories. If you could find 8 that were correct that would work great.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/231382218346?lpid=82
 

LMBRJQ 60

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 4
I took the frame to two different shops. The first shop specialized in race suspensions and had experience with Independent Rears. His focus wasn't so much the trailing arms as much as making sure the axle center lines were the same and the pinion angle was good. This shop had the frame for a year (long story) and placed the cross member in place and verified pinion angle was a positive 3 degrees. This is important for two reasons. The first is the most obvious, the drive shaft angle. The second was so the lower control arms are parallel to the ground, this allows the bearings to wear evenly. One the upside, he didn't charge me for welding in the cross member or the other work/measurements he did. And he was closing shop because he didn't have time to keep this work as his primary focus.

The second shop I took the frame too kept it three weeks. Last year, he put a 'vette IRS into a '61 or '62 Bel Air. He and I had some good discussions around the trailing arms and the shocks. In the end, he said the Jag was easier and didn't require as many modifications as the 'vette rear.

Because I like to be engaged with any shop I use, I did a lot of research on what works best and avoiding bind in the suspension. I did a lot of work on this site:
http://irsforum.boardhost.com/index.php

This research really came in handy and both shops liked my input/thoughts.

With the trailing arms, length isn't too big of a deal. The mounting points however, need to be done in a manner which doesn't bind, otherwise, a lot of wear will be caused on either the lower control arm bearings/bushings or the trailing arm mount points. Stock Jags didn't have this problem since they used rubber bushings on both ends of their trailing arm. This absorbed the bind, especially in non-high hp applications. In a lot of cases, trailing arms aren't needed. In my case, the are needed, badly. They will cut down on the wear on the lower control arms during acceleration. On a hard acceleration with lots of tire grip, the hubs could break. The trailing arms help strengthen the lower control arms by not allowing them to move perpendicular to the shock travel.. To prevent bind, the trailing arms must pivot on the same plane as the lower control arms. Otherwise, they push/pull the lower control arms as the suspension cycles.

The direction of the trailing arms is more of a clearance and aesthetic concern. Since I didn't have clearance to run them to the front (the frame got in the way), I decided to run them to the rear.
I will be running a total of four shocks, just like the stock Jag would have. Even though the El Camino isn't too heavy, the work required on the shocks is a lot.

Let me know if this answers your questions or sparks new ones. I'm happy to share what I've learned.

Ragan,
I put a Jag independent rear in a 37 frod hot rod, put a later model 4.0L 3.25:1 gearset in the original head
Trailing arms to the front (had heaps of room)
Made everything very similar to what you have done inc bushes on top of head etc
Only thing i did was to make the top anchor points for the shocks adjustable up and down and inboard and out board
If the ride in the El Camino is to stiff it is only a matter of a few degrees to soften the rear by tilting the shocks inboard.
Will try and find some pics
Steve
 

303Radar

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Hi Ragan,
Just a thought, have you got a spare head and valve cover lying around?
It might have been worth making up a wooden buck that the head sits on at the correct angle on your shop bench
then you can sit the coils around the area that you think is OK and just make wooden blocks etc to sit them on to get a visual idea
Might help and wood is easy to mess with to get things mocked up

Steve
I do have a spare head but I don't have a spare valve cover. With the engine mocked up, I did take a couple of measurements to see what kind of angle I wanted for option 2. With the stock valve cover, there is a lot of room to play with, if I don't cover it up. I have been working with the head at an angle while on the bench.
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
I'd be more worried about heat from the headers shortening coil life, but if you can figure out a mounting system that shields that then you should be fine. I like option #2 of yours best.
 

BOSSMAN

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 1
Ragan, I would suggest one of two things. Either mount on top of the valve cover just like a LS or mount to the firewall and run wires up. The heat will kill those coils that others have stated. If you absolutely want them there you need to look at a different coil style like the type that go I'm a Hemi or Modular Ford. You could make small brackets off you valve cover from there for that style - COP.
 

303Radar

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Thought I'd throw in some pics with body work update. I didn't take any before pics since nearly everyone has either seen or can imagine badly rusted rear quarters and mine were bad. That, and I really don't want to remember how bad it was. The inner supports were rusted out on both sides and there was a lot rust and other damage in front of the wheel housing as well. After talking with my body guy, he said it was cheaper to order the replacement panels rather than try to re-create them.

Eckler's is the only reseller which claims these replacement panels fit El Camino. It seems like only Sherman is making the replacement panels and Sherman doesn't claim these fit El Camino or wagon. Here are links to the panels in general:
http://www.lategreatchevy.com/full-size-chevy-rear-quarter-panel-lower-right-1959.html
http://www.lategreatchevy.com/full-size-chevy-quarter-panel-right-lower-front-1959.html

On the upside, the replacement panels were a 90% solution. They were close in most areas and although they needed a fair amount of work, my body guy said they saved me about 5k in labor for each side. The down side, still not cheap in the end. The panels needed some massaging, especially since the details/rolled lip around the wheel well had to be re-worked. Once a new die was made, the rolled lip looks flawless across the two panels.

In the after pic, it's hard to tell where the two panels were butt welded together. Once the welds are dressed, the job they did will need only minimal body filler to smooth out. And where the new eight foot long panel was welded to the body, most of the welding will be near if not under the side molding.

I don't know if my body guy is right or if they're tooting their own horn on the work done, but they said most shops wouldn't tig weld this, they would mig weld this and use a lot of body filler and likely wouldn't deal with the inner support pieces. Overall I'm very please with the work and in some places, I think the replacement is better than the original.
BodyMidWayjpeg.jpeg BodyAfter.jpeg
 

LMBRJQ 60

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 4
Ragan,

I would tig the mild steel panels if i was a better tig operator on mild steel.
Can weld stainless steel with my tig no problem but have issues with mild steel.
Very low distortion and a soft weld to hammer and file
Metal has to be very clean (read spotless and prepped with no impurities like paint residue, galv, rust, dirt anything) hard to do inside and out on a part of the car that the back side cannot be accessed

Awesome job by the way

Steve
 

303Radar

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Car is back from body shop, here are some pics of it in primer. It spent close to 450 hours at the body shop getting rusty panels repaired or replaced. You'll have to take my word for it the floorboards are fixed, I already have too much stuff in the cab to show it off.
 

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303Radar

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Been away for a bit with a new job and staying on top of family. But today I got my valve covers back from my neighbor who did some work for me. I now have a bracket I can mount my coil packs on, over the valve cover.
Thought I'd pass along a couple of pics.
The nut zerts won't interfere with the valves and on the back side, I'll be able to put in some wire loom holder.
I still need to do some final shaping so the bow tie is exposed but I think the idea is shaping up well.
 

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303Radar

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Next question, how do I measure spark plug wire length?
Right now, in a straight line, it is between 6 and 7 inches from the end of the coil pack to the tip of the spark plug.
I'm not sure what kind of boot angles would be helpful either. These are LS3 coil packs.
Thoughts?
 
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