Starting new engine this week lifter question

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
No I would not use that 409/409 replica.For one thing,it's a solid flat tappet cam,for another old outdated design.If the 0950 isn't available,go with Howards Cams pn cl-131101-12 for the cam and lifter set.As to the pistons,2 cast pistons from another set won't be a problem,turn your existing crank,and have the rotating assembly balanced.


Thanks Don, I'll look into the Howard Cam, Bruce is out of the 0950 and he has to wait until there is enough to order to send it on to Comp cams, that could be a while, much appreciated.
 

Phil Reed

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 10
No I would not use that 409/409 replica.For one thing,it's a solid flat tappet cam,for another old outdated design.If the 0950 isn't available,go with Howards Cams pn cl-131101-12 for the cam and lifter set.As to the pistons,2 cast pistons from another set won't be a problem,turn your existing crank,and have the rotating assembly balanced.
Don...buying used pistons, for me is a crap shoot. You need to mic the skirts to make sure they are not "too used". Don't need piston wobble.
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
I forgot, are your .030" over 409 pistons forged aluminum or cast?

I am definitely .30 over, They are for sure aluminum, this was a budget build to begin with by the other guy, so I am going to assume Cast Aluminum, some of the parts we found inside this thing are definitely japan made, no one has heard of the new Cam P/N 417190

The Pistons have R/C stamped on them and are Pn: PST-2191A.

I talked to the Machine shop again and he told me he can clean the skirt up and we could reuse it, (its just one piston that is scratched) but I do not want an engine full of Jap Parts, so I am considering changing pistons as well, although this is not a high output motor, I want dependable, I watched several videos on Cast/Vs. Forged there are huge differences.

The Cam has to be changed as well even though its new, its a very stock style cam, I am looking into those already with matching Springs I just do not want to change push rods or Rockers.

Don, when I get the rotating assy back and get that built, how do I check for the .60 on the heads gap and where do I check, just use feeler gauges?

The shop is sending a gasket kit with me when I pick it up, but his thought is that measurement is not important(?)

As I said good machinist but NOT a 409 guy, who has seen failures from using the wrong stuff.

I have the 348/409 assembly book on the way, all this should be in there.
He also thought balancing a low performance 409 was a waste of time and money, Iv'e always heard you should as well.
 

Don Jacks

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 3
What you're going to need to do is mock up a piston and rod assembly here[no rings on the piston] ,locate exact TDC for number .With the piston at top dead center,measure the distance from the top of the piston to the top of the block.You'll need a depth gauge or mic.This distance will determine what your quench distance is.It's a good idea to check the deck at all four corners.It will likely need milled if it hasn't been done.For that reason,I don't have the cam bearings done until after the mock up,final decking,and cleaning are done.The main negative to forged pistons is cost.Show Cars sells an Icon piston set that has several advantages over cast parts for about 600 a set,but to use them,you'd need to bore/hone the cylinders an extra.008 They can also sell you Ross piston that won't need the extra machine work for about 200.more dollars.There's even a kinda trick application using the aftermarket 6.385 rod that you can do fairly cheaply,and will make for a really happy engine.
 
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Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Your pistons were made by the company who's website is linked to below... I Googled the part number...
http://www.tik.com.tw/index.php?opt...ask=pageinfo&id=21300&belongid=21278&index=18


Junky, thank you very much, So I am guessing the piston, rings and all came from them, I mean don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to using some stuff from Taiwan but not my pistons for crying out loud, I'll be buying a new set, good looking out, I could not find them anywhere.
 

427John

Well Known Member
Iowa,I was looking at the same google results as Junky and they appeared to be listed as industrial application which would lead me to believe they are similar to the low compression truck piston which if so makes the icons look even more attractive.The lack of a chamfer at the bottoms of the cylinders is another indication of poor attention to detail when the engine was originally assembled,you definitely want the sharp corner knocked off there.The upside to all this is now you know it will have all the parts in it you want and will be a good foundation even if you want to do power upgrades down the road.
P.S.Does anyone know if the icon pistons are meant for use with original 409 rods or 348/BBC length rods?
 

Don Jacks

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 3
The Icons are made with 3 different pin heights,one for the stock rod length,another for the big block rod length,and my favorite ,one for either the 4 inch stroke when using the 6.135 length rod or you can use a 6.385 rod and the stock 409 crank.Show Cars is your best place to buy them.
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Thanks John, I traced them back from Taiwan to a company stateside here called Packard, they say they are Teflon coated, cast pistons based on TRW specs and they have glowing reviews on them, lol. I just cannot imagine these holding up to a hard RPM/High RPM, or just the heat the 409 naturally produces, and if they do, it would not be long term, in my opinion. Also the weak point I see with them is the wrist pins are half the thickness of a standard Wrist pin the car came with from the factory. I think the thing to think about here is, to do it the way I want it the first time, I'll never take the motor out and do this again unless I have to, so.... here is my question, and maybe this is better to Bruce at Show Cars but....... If I want to pump it up so to speak now, I do not want to bore it more than it is now, the crank is being ground already, should I change rods and Pistons now and make it a stroker now and if so, what would be the kit to buy, I am never going to go to a dual 4 barrel I am going to keep it single carb.

Or does that make no sense, just keep it at the 409/340 specs? keep in mind I have the 817 heads. I am planning on going with the upgraded cam and intake, I am undecided on going with the Holley carb at this point, I have switched out the points distributor to HEI, I am definitely thinking Molly rings whichever way I go.
 

Don Jacks

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 3
Then I'd go with a Ross piston,with the maximum weight reduction option,and the thinner ring pack.With the cam suggested,the stock rod would work.If you think that power improvements may be in your future,then go with an aftermarket big block rod,either 6.135 or 6.385 in length.
 

Tom Kochtanek

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 12
Pistons appear to be off shore "knock offs" of the TRW design, which was a forged production. These are likely to be cast as well, just made to look like the high perf TRWs. So a good move would be to consider a fresh set of forged pistons made by a reputable company. Both those mentioned are solid choices (the forged KB-Ikons and the Ross pistons)

Since you are now .030" you'd have to wonder what the previous guy used to get to .030", did he use a boring bar or just hone the existing cylinders? If honed, you gotta wonder if they are true and whether the decks were checked/squared, etc. Not knowing really sucks, so it might be best to start with the bare block and check that deck then the bores?

I have to give you credit for wanting to do it right, I know the temptation to slap something together like we did in Dad's garage back in the day (if your Dad even let you use his garage :)).

Good luck!
TomK
 

Iowa409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
True Tom, no dad did not,lol


My bore is a true .30 oversize, they did a good job in the cylinders as far as boring and they are true .30, however my machine shop is not set up to bore them any larger, they do more conventional motors all day, no 409 at all to speak of. He is doing this as a favor to me to help me out, he has done all my small block stuff in the past.


So I will not be doing any boring is my point, so whatever I can do to increase horsepower is what I am after, short of boring.

The 817 heads has new valves, they had a good rebuild on them prior to assembly and looks great, but they only offers so much Exhaust/intake, so I am limited there (I think?) My understanding is the 817's are small ports? I think we are changing the springs to accommodate the new cam.

I am basing the cam off of those heads, but, if I am giving up to much power/ loosing to much power in those heads that will need to be considered.

Ideally, I would love to push 450-500 HP with this motor, some of the guys have been great with suggestions but until I get my build book which shows upgrades and mods, I am lost without a blue print/master plan. I will more than likely go with Ross pistons from what I can understand and comprehend. If we go to a stronger Rod (stroke) I would think something else has to change, crank or piston depth? At the end of the day, I want it street-able. My rods are perfect, that are Stock.
 

Don Jacks

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 3
The Ross piston can be ordered in any number of configurations[custom].To get to 450 hp,it's going to take head work.Bigger intake valves,pocket porting,and a bigger cam.450 CAN be achieved using a dual plane intake and single carb[750 cfm] and small port heads,500 would mean a head swap to the large port heads and intake.There are no current books or guidelines as to how to achieve these goals,but we have members here that can direct you.First you must decide exactly what you want this engine to do.Once that's done,there are people on here,myself included that can tell you what you need and exactly how to do it.
 
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