Timing Cover fit

[ROYALOAK62]

Having problems with the timing cover not fitting now that I have changed cams for my 409. Went from stock solid Isky to Crane #150311 hydraulic cam with new Cloyes #9-3101 timing chain set.

Fit is fine at the crank end but cam gear and chain area or top of the cover now rub.

How do I know when the cam is seated so the cam gear & chain are in the correct position?
Do not want to pound on the cam to move it in farther back into the block.

Dave

 

[dq409]

Rotate the engine by hand and the cam should seat where it wants and center on the lifters.

MAKE SURE the cam gear and crank gear line up BEFORE you button it up or you will have major problems!!!

 

[Fathead Racing]

Cover may be over center from damage. Take a rubber mallet and set the timing cover face down in say a coffee can, with the timing gear center over the opening. Pound it out a little untill it will clear, no biggie. This happened to me. After I popped the cover back out it fit fine. Do not pound on the cam, you will pound out the plug at the rear of the engine. Cam and crank gear can be out as much as .060" without problems.

 

[dq409]

Cam and crank gear can be out as much as .060" without problems.

:eek: :eek: :eek: Which way ????
The problem I had with mine was that the crank was IN and pulled the cam into the block !!!!!Put lots of metal into the engine !!

 

[tripower]

:eek: :eek: :eek: Which way ????
The problem I had with mine was that the crank was IN and pulled the cam into the block !!!!!Put lots of metal into the engine !!

Isn't there suppose to be an end play tolerance here?

 

[dq409]

Isn't there suppose to be an end play tolerance here?

Yes, but with too much off set the wrong way as "in" on the crank it can pull the cam into the block.
I know,,,, mine did it twice to two different blocks before we figured it out.
It also will eat your cam and lifters in a matter of minutes !!!!,,, dq

 

[ROYALOAK62]

Thanks everyone, will work on it over the weekend.

Here around Detroit we are just starting the first major SNOW FALL of the year. Only have had about 4 inches up to this point all winter, just been real cold. Should get from 4 to 8 total late tonight and tomorrow with temp in the mid-teens. Nothing to write about as we have heat in the garage but will wait it out.

Dave

 

[tripower]

Yes, but with too much off set the wrong way as "in" on the crank it can pull the cam into the block.
I know,,,, mine did it twice to two different blocks before we figured it out.
It also will eat your cam and lifters in a matter of minutes !!!!,,, dq

I know in some of the casting of the Mark lV BBC 502 in particular the lifter bores were not square and if you tried to run a roller cam you had to have the lifter bores bushed. Has that been a issue with the 348 or the 409?

 

[dq409]

I know in some of the casting of the Mark lV BBC 502 in particular the lifter bores were not square and if you tried to run a roller cam you had to have the lifter bores bushed. Has that been a issue with the 348 or the 409?

I don`t believe it has been a problem with the "W" blocks.
We had many discoussions about this when I was having my problems with my build up.
I would eat cams like candy in just a few minutes of break-in and could not find the cause.
Did every thing you could think of to find the problem and thinking it was the lifter bores I switched blocks and used the same internals except went with a complete roller set-up.

Thats when the only problem that showed back up was the cam eating into the block.

I then took the engine to the best race engine builder in Portland, Payola`s, and had them rebuild it.
They found several things wrong but the major screwup was the crank pulley was in too far and the cam gear was out too far !!!
This caused the cam to be pulled into the block.

Neither block was ruined, matter of fact now both blocks are prepped to take a full roller cam bearing (gear to block)!!

Lucky for us that the 409 blocks are not known to have lifter bore alignment problems because finding a shop that has a jig to blue print the lifter bores in nil to none.

It would be very expensive to set-up each lifter bore to machined individually!

They do have the jigs to do BBC and SBC`s that makes those engine lifter bores done at a resonable price. ,,,dq

 

[Fathead Racing]

Wear plate.

I have a cam wear plate behind my roller cam, supposed to last longer than the torrington bearing. Jim, Curt Harvey said that the .060" was the limit he would run the gears out. Says this is quite common. Think of how many build their engines without checking this and have no problems. All you have to eat is one cam/block and it will get your attention righ now!

 

[dq409]

. Think of how many build their engines without checking this and have no problems. All you have to eat is one cam/block and it will get your attention righ now!

NO SH*T !!!!

Most everyone I`ve told this to just shake their heads as they have never heard of it or seen it before.

How many engines have we built without EVER checking this?

And you are right about one thing,,,It does get your attention !!

This is why I bring it up so often.

It`s weird though,, The engine I tore apart didn`t have this problem as it was a running engine. It did have main bearing problems but no cam problem.

All I did was swap out the block and use all the internals in the new block.
This alone should not have caused a problem.
Then after the problem occured I blamed it on the new block.
Swapped out that block for another one and still had the problem!!

Thats when we discovered what was causing it.

I had several well know engine builders help build or rebuild these engines and they never found the problem due to not EVER seeing this happen.

Just one of those things,,, dq

BTW,,, If it`s going to happen,,, it will happen to me

 

[tripower]

I then took the engine to the best race engine builder in Portland, Payola`s, and had them rebuild it.
They found several things wrong but the major screwup was the crank pulley was in too far and the cam gear was out too far !!!
This caused the cam to be pulled into the block. ,,,dq

DQ, So what was the remedy and, what were the other problems. Did they use a different crank pulley? What caused that cam gear to be in to far?

 

[bluescreamer]

Jim
I had the same problem this past summer. I split a cylinder on my 474ci
motor. When we dissenbled the motor we found the cam gear wore into
the block.
This can cause many things to happen.
1. if it wears to much off the front of the block the lifters may
touch a different cam lobe. OUCH
2. It also changes the ignition timing actually advancing it, more than the
motor needs. causing the bronze bushings to be hammered out of the
connecting rod wrist pin end. OUCH
3. It may have been the cause that I split the cylinder when I
over reved the motor on the burn out.
We corrected by squaring up the cam journal area. and than made a
bronze washer, that fits between the cam gear and the block.
I made the mistake of using a steel cam gear instead of a cast iron
gear.
Engine builder indicated that is a no no. Need to install a shim or install
a torrington bearing if you use a steel gear.
After installing a sleeve and rebuild. The motor is back to together
waiting to be dyno, before being installed in the Screamer
Allen

 

[Fathead Racing]

Yes Allen I had the same problem, solution was a steel shim between the Cloyes gear and the block.

 

[jim_ss409]

I just pulled the cam and guess what? Same thing... The cam gear's been eating the front of the block. I suspected there might be a problem because I noticed that the ignition timing would walk around a bit despite being locked out. We also have a steel cam gear. Fortunately we caught the problem before it got out of hand. We already trued up the worn area of the block with a cutting bit attached to an old cam and I see Cloyes has a few different bushings and bearings available... http://www.cloyes.com/images/CloyesHighPerformCat-2002.pdf
But I think we'll probably just make a bronze bushing on the lathe. This time I'll be sure to check that the gear alignment is good and I'll also make sure the lobes and roller lifters line up right too. I guess you live and learn.

 

[dq409]

I`m really not sure what Mitch did to correct this.
I think he moved the crank gear out but not sure about what he did on the cam gear.

Glad and sorry to hear others have this problem,,,BUT,,, this is a lesson learned.

CHECK the gear alignment !!! ,,dq

 

[jas63ss]

Isn,t the cam location dictated by the blocks rear cam bearing holes/groove in camshaft? I just installed a new Isky in my QB and lined up the cam bearing holes with the ones in the block and then set the rear cam stop so the groove in the cam lined up with the groove in the rear bearing. This appeared to be the proper way to do it but when I look down the lifter bores the cam lobes seem to be offset quite a bit from center. Please respond before I go any further!!!
Thanks
Jimmy

 

[Fathead Racing]

The rear plug is not a locator. The cam is located on a flat tappet cam by the lifters as they run on the cam itself. The roller cam can and will run forward and back, the timing chain gear assembly will keep it in check only to a certain degree. A cam button on the front of the cam is a must for roller cam applications. The lifters do not center on the flat tappet cam, they will run offset, this will pull the cam toward the rear of the engine as designed. Your ok.

 

[jas63ss]

Thanks Fatride,
I will be able to sleep tonight.

Jimmy

 

[djohnson1937]

New to 348-409 rebuilds here.....but I am also concerned about this cam float thing. I am having the lower end built up on a 409 and wondering if the rear button should be located somewhere precise? other motors that I have done have had a cam retainer on the front.