Tranny / Clutch help

SSpev

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Need input on going faster.....:dunno:cool:
Right now I run a 396 + 60 with a 2.43 1st gear ST10. Hays aluminum wheel with a super connector disc and a Ram long finger clutch set at 2200#.
Got 4.10 and 28 inch tires out back. Best run was a 8.7 at 82 (1/8mile)
I am planning a 409 stroker build, but that is another topic.:rolleyes::D:coffee:
What I want to know about is tranny and clutch setups.
I have the chance to buy a Nash 4+1. Which should help my launch. My bad 60 is 2.0 / 1.9
The questions - Will my ST10 die? Will it work with a better clutch/ survive? Should I go for the Nash, stronger, better, lower 1st gear(3.09)?
What are you real racers using?
 

Quickshift409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 11
Trans/ Clutch

Tom, I think maybe a little more gear (4:56 ) would help. Don't know what your launch RPM is but that's a big factor.
 

DIV1RACER-2

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 12
The S T-10 will take the beating untill you start hooking the car very hard . The Doug Nash is a better choice w/ the deeper 1st gear . You can expect 60 ' improvements with this change only, if the car will hookup! :dunno
 

SSpev

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
More....

I would have to agree with both of you. I feel I need as much over all gear as I can stand. right now its just 9.96. The 4.10 rear is for the street, so it will have to come from a transmission. With the Nash it would be 12.5 . I an concerned about the ratio 3-4-5 being to close 1.53, 1.25, 1. What I would really like to have is the new Richmond 5 spd overdrive with a 3.01 1st and a .77 5th, but thats $3500 I don't have if I do a 409. Money is always an issue.

My launch rpm is low, 3500 to 4000.:doh Mainly cause I was concerned with the st10 splitting the case. Also I'm not very good at the line. :dunno Only tried 11 times so far.:D Thought about a 2 stage rev limiter to get my rpm right on. It hooks on dirt right now. Maybe cause I launch to low. Had the tires between 13 and 18 psi.

I keep here ing it's all in the clutch. Maybe I should be looking at something with a light base and a iron disc?:bang
 

SSpev

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Thought about a tko600. I just don't know any one that uses them for drag racing. Don't know how the shifter works/ missed shifts? Stuck with a H type pattern. (no inline shifter)

Maybe I am to anal:doh:dunno
 

62409wagon

Well Known Member
We have 4:88s in the wagon, we figured we would start there, 28" tire,we have louched the car @ 4800 rpm, the st10 is holding up fine, we lost our first clutch the second round :doh the slicks hook real good with all the weight on them :)
now we have a centreforce clutch seems to be holding fine, but we only have a few runs on it. we still have a long way to go also . good luck. oh and we are also going this root - 2 stage rev limiter. here the car is @ Lebonon valley
http://photosbyjim.smugmug.com/gallery/6290339_x5G89#396730919_BnYaJ
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Nash 4+1

I think the ST10 will hold up for awhile, but if you have a chance to get that Nash 5 speed at a good price I'd jump on it. This is the same transmission Richmond sales now. I was around a friend's 68 Chevelle 396 that had a M20 (wide ratio) and 3.73 rear that was having problems keeping a transmission in it. He had stored the original drivetrain and built a beefier solid lifter 396 and plopped down about $1800 for the Richmond "street" 5 spd. (4+1) First in it was 3.27:1 if I remember correctly. Anyway he ended up with about $2100 in the swap by the time he bought the shifter. He used a CenterForce Dual Friction clutch and it seemed to hold up great. I thought he was nuts for spending so much on that transmission, but wow was I wrong. It was amazing the difference it made. The car didn't run alot quicker (because he now couldn't get the slicks to hook.) but it was brutal. The change was similar to putting a small N2O kit on it felt like. That car would pull the front tires hard on the line even though it still wasn't hooking up all the way, then it would pop the driver's front a few inches at the 1-2 change, and I even saw it pop the tire one time on the 2-3 shift. On the street it felt like a 6 second 1/8th mile ride. At the track and with the traction problems it went 8.30's the first time out, and then later high 7's. Not at all as quick as it felt, but still a good improvement from the high 8's he'd been running. To this day I still get wild ideas about changing my car over to the same outfit, but then the reality hits me that I'm not that good of a speed shifter and my TH400 is paid for and seems to be bulletproof (along with a backup.) :takethat
Anyway...I don't think you'd have to worry about breaking the Nash, and peace of mind can be worth a ton....plus it will turn your car into a real intimidating ride.
 

mark johnson

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
I can relate to nothing but trouble with the Richmond (Nash) 5 speed that I had installed in my last car. Brand new out of the crate with brand new Hurst shifter. What a miserable shifting transmission that was and I set it up meticulously several times. It's called the Street 5-speed because the minute you try to do anything serious with it, it would hang up between the gears. After a lot of research, I learned this is a common problem with them and Richmond will accept them back, make some changes that apparently make them a little better and send it back to you. I paid a lot of money for that transmission and was really disappointed in it. In fact, they recently introduced a stronger version and I can't help but think they probably addressed many issues with it, but it's a $3100 tranmission. OUCH! Anyway, I drove a friends GTO with brand new Auotgear Super Muncie M-22 and it felt great. That's where my money recently went. Never owned a real Rockcrusher and always felt like it was a missing part of my life that now has been filled! Yes, I'll take cheese with that gear "whine"!
 

chevytaylor

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
I can relate to nothing but trouble with the Richmond (Nash) 5 speed that I had installed in my last car. Brand new out of the crate with brand new Hurst shifter. What a miserable shifting transmission that was and I set it up meticulously several times. It's called the Street 5-speed because the minute you try to do anything serious with it, it would hang up between the gears. After a lot of research, I learned this is a common problem with them and Richmond will accept them back, make some changes that apparently make them a little better and send it back to you. I paid a lot of money for that transmission and was really disappointed in it. In fact, they recently introduced a stronger version and I can't help but think they probably addressed many issues with it, but it's a $3100 tranmission. OUCH! Anyway, I drove a friends GTO with brand new Auotgear Super Muncie M-22 and it felt great. That's where my money recently went. Never owned a real Rockcrusher and always felt like it was a missing part of my life that now has been filled! Yes, I'll take cheese with that gear "whine"!

Mark, I can relate to your H pattern shifter "lockup" issues with the Richmond street 5 speed. The way I got around it was a Hurst V gate inline shifter. It was awesome for a while. I ran a 3.89 rear gear, a 28" M/T drag radial and would run in the elevens at over 116 mph all day. Ended up breaking the Richmond though.................twice :grumble:
I think this box is a great choice for, as stated, "street" only applications. Doug Nash's original idea behind this particular box, with a very low 1st and 1:1 5th gear, is awesome and works extremely well...............just not tough enough for drag racing big heavy cars with a lot of power unfortunately. Maybe with some (expensive) mods it might be a different story.
 

SSpev

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
still figuring

yep, all over the umtr site, well reading it. almost got all the clutch and tranny topics done.:rolleyes:
Love the 62 wagon. :cheers what is your 1st gear? what disc? There is a fella on the umtr site that sweers by the st10. I need to call him. I might change to a 2.88 st10.
The nash is still in the guys car. He is replacing it with a G-force. I don't know if it is a street or a drag tranny. I think it was before richmond.:dunno
Any way, what I think I will have is a new adjustable, cw clutch from ram. I think 1000 - 1500 # base and I will use the 900 series iron disc with the spung hub. (got one already)

Tranny is the hard part. Any one got a Jerico laying around for CHEAP?:doh:bang

QuickShift, Mr Ford, what do you use?
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
I'm glad all of you having problems with the Richmond (Nash) "street" 5 spd spoke up. I'd always thought about getting one, but now I'm thinking I will stay away from them. Maybe my friend was just lucky with his. I think he didn't have the shifter problems ya'll mentioned because he ponied up for that high dollar Long brand shifter. That was one hefty looking piece. Looked like a Hurst on steroids. lol
 

Quickshift409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 11
Trans

Tom, I use a Muncie with 2:56 first gear and Hurst Pro-Shifter with Hays Hi-Po clutch.:dunno Works for me.
 

MRHP

 
Supporting Member 1
I have been reading with lots of interest. My stroker has a Muncie with a 2.54 first gear I think. 27 inch tire and 4.11 gear. I too have been looking for a trans to hold up and had been thinking Richmond and such. I have a Centerforce dual friction clutch and a scattershield. Now I need a trans and driveshaft. Keep the recommendations coming!
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
What's the first gear ratio for the early (63-65) M-20 ? How are they from a durablity standpoint compared to later ones? I'm thinking that for it to have gotten a redesign back then, it must have gotten upgraded. :dunno I've got one of those, but I'm afraid to lean on it hard. I figure it's worth too much to just hand grenade behind a rat motor.
 

fourspeed409

Well Known Member
Tom
One thing you should find out about the Doug Nash is if it is a Pro Shift trans. If so it is designed for racing. There will be no syncros in it. They can be run on the street no problem but you have to get used to double clutching and throttle control while shifting them easy. One major warning with these trannys is THEY ARE ADICTIVE!! When you hold the gas to the floor, breathe on the clutch pedal and jam the gears as fast as your arm can go. The tranny will shift like butter wide open. You won't want to go back to a stock trans.
All the gears slide off of the shafts in the Nash so if you break it, a single gear can be repaired not the whole cluster shaft replaced like a T-10.
I would think the Inline shifter would be hard to use on the street. My long shifter will drop a couple of gates if you shift it easy, it is meant to be beat.
Here is a couple photos of my Nashnash1.jpg

malibu_81_022.jpg

Look at the size of the shaftsnash5.jpg

Here is a T-10c3de_1.jpg

Don't be afraid to bash a Nash

Shane
 

SSpev

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
QuickShift What is a Hi-Po clutch???? I looked or one, only saw street, street-strip, competition. Do you race? Launch rpm? Do you lift to shift?

MRHP, no 2.54 that I can remember.:dunno 2.56, 2.52, 2.20. Through 1965 has a 7/8 counter pin. 66 on has a 1". There are several on the UMTR site that use the DF center force

2.56/2.52 -M20
2.20 - M21 or M22 There are straighter cut teeth on a 22.
10 spline input, 350 yoke till 1970. 26 spline, 400 yoke 71-74

I would "lean on" an early muncie with the 7/8 pin. My lean is pretty light.;) I had a sagnaw behind the 396 but I never hi tit hard.:nono1: I wouldn't do it like my ST10.
I shift like Aubrey :bow Flat foot the go peddle and YANK the gears. A friend road with me and said I was violent.:eek::cool:
As far as I know, stringth wise, I don't know anything about the T10, but here is the ones I do. weak to strong
Early Munce
3.50 ST10
2.88 ST10
Late Muncie
2.64 ST10
M22
2.43 ST10
Iron case ST10

Shane, that nash is just like the one I'm looking into. Yes, pro shifted by liberty. I have 3 hangups, Can I street drive it, $1800 for the nash or $2200 for heads.:scratch
If I build this 09, I need the tranny. If I use the 396 a 2.88 ST10 with he right clutch would work:bang:bang:bang
 

Garbageman

 
Supporting Member 1
Tom

You are getting alot of great information from the gang.
I was using the Autogear Muncie M22 in my '62 with 4.11 rear gear and I couldn't get off the line without bogging the motor. It was a fantastic tranny, never missed a gear but I could not get a low enough 1st gear to launch my car.

Last spring I purchased a new Jerico 4spd with a Long V-Gate shifter and installed it in the '62. I used a Ram #1800 preasure plate and 6 puck disc.

WOW what a difference. No more bogging, it shifts like butter, I dropped my 60' from 2.1+ to 1.82 and my 1/4 mile went from 13.3+ to 12.98. I did lose 2 mph but what the heck.

I was looking for a used Nash 4+1 but for the money everyone wanted for used and unknown Nashs I went with the new, built to my specs, Jerico.

Good Luck with your build.

Paul
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Wow I'm very glad I didn't "lean" on the early M-20 that I have since you list it at the bottom. I guess it's not that much better than a saginaw then.

If you are talking about $$ for the nash behind a 409 vs. $$ for heads for your 396....I'd say go with the 409. A 396 is a great "starter" BBC and if you are going to stick with rat motors then I'd leave it in there, but I'm pretty sure you'd rather have the 409 in there. Also...no offense to any 396 fans out there, but you won't see as much of an improvement on a 396 with $2200 heads as you would putting those heads on a bigger engine. If you stick with a rat motor, I'd put $2200 into a bigger short block instead of better heads for the 396. Just my opinion. I have ZERO W-Motor experience (unfortunately), but I've been messing with the other big blocks for almost 20 years.
 
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