Based on Blkblk63SS pics that is not your problem. The oil sits there until enough accumulates and it drains. The PCV system is the next easy thing to do.
Very light smoke still there
- Thread starter Carmine
- Start date
Carmine, did you pull the vacuum hose off of the pcv valve and check for oil in the hose or in the pcv valve? If it is pulling oil through the pcv system there will be oil in the hose and valve.
Why not plug pcv and let hose that was on it vent to atmosphere ,cover end with a rag and see if smoking quit"s.If it don"t you probably have other causes for smoking.
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I am just guessing at this point, however, with the PCV system being in question it reminds me of the Harley Evo motors. Most people don't realize that there are 3 distinct areas that must work together to move oil through the system. So I was trying to think what could stop the oil from not draining from the heads. Where would the pressure come from? Rings not seated could create crankcase pressure. If that pressure was not properly vented, then it could keep oil from draining from the heads, or at least limit it. Does Carmine have an oil pump that could be producing too much oil volume to overwhelm the return? Is there any possibility that he has the wrong head gaskets? Just throwing out ideas. Sure would like for someone to be able to help Carmine without him having to pull that motor if it is not necessary.
Yes, I did that. The hose/PCV valve is bone dry.
Oil cap is the open type. Vented underneath.
You can see the oil sitting about 1/4" down the return hole. Its not the greatest angle in the world for draining, but wouldn't common sense tell you that gravity would play a part here?? Does the oil and head have to be hot and an accumulation for it to move through the drain?? It might have been a crude experiment, but I used a 348 head and oil moved through that drain with no problem.
The oil pump is a stock variety. About 45-50 lbs at 2200-2500 rpm's. Idling 800-900 rpm's it has about 20 lbs of pressure.
Depending what is said at the machine shop tomorrow, my next move will be the original road draft tube. Return to stock ventilation. I may or maynot have mentioned previously, there is no smoke when the engine first starts. Its only after returning from a ride, that you can see the very light blue smoke. During the ride, if you stop at a light or sign, the air behind the car catches up with you and you can smell the burnt oil. Something happens after warm up/operating temp. to make this thing smoke. I just can't escape seeing the exhaust valve guide/area overwhelmed and saturated with an accumulation of oil from not being drained properly.
No Jim, I never checked for vacuum at the PCV valve. I guess that is something I should do. I did put a screwdriver into the valve and I could feel it go up against what I describe as a springed door. Thought it might be working properly.
Well, just came in from the garage and here we go again, another experiment. I checked the oil in the drain and it hadn't moved at all over night. I then made a dam in the pocket below the drain hole where oil could accumulate. I filled this pocket up completely to the top of the bottom rail of the head. I used a squeegee type bottle that put a few tiny air bubbles into the oil. I watched the bubbles go to the drain hole and disappear. The pocket was drained as to the extent it could be. What remained in the drain hole was the same amount before starting out. Did it a 2nd time with the same result. Even though the hole didn't drain completely, apparently a certain amount of accumulation is needed to start the process. Whether fact or theory, the drain hole does appear to be working with the proper amount of accumulated oil. Maybe by design??
I also pulled the 4 spark plugs. They show signs of a good burn. Look similar to the pics I posted of them a while back. My interest was actually #8 plug. Seeing how the motor is angled back at 5 degrees, I would think that a lot of oil would accumulate in the pocket below this rear drain before actually reaching it. Perhaps overwhelming and saturating #8 exhaust valve guide. This spark plug showed the best burn of all. Hmmmmm.......................................
Just out of curiosity, I measured the height of the exhaust valve guide from its base to the slightly rounded top. 5/8 of an inch is what I got. To me, that is quite a height/depth for oil to reach, accumulate and be contained in the valve cover, before seeping down the valve guide. I just don't know. Anyway, I didn't do the driver side. Going to a car club picnic so I wanted to take the car. Buttoned it back up for now. Will do the other side tomorrow.
The pic I'm showing is the area above 4-6 cylinders. I see oil accumulated in these pockets. Not sure I should be concerned about this. I suppose a lot of sloshing takes place inside those covers. Have a good day everyone, Carmine.
Just like the water trap in your sink.
When the engine is running all that action of the rockers flailing around create some pressure under the rocker covers which should help the oil drain back as long as crankcase pressure isn't greater.
I would be looking for an intake gasket leak.
When the engine is running all that action of the rockers flailing around create some pressure under the rocker covers which should help the oil drain back as long as crankcase pressure isn't greater.
I would be looking for an intake gasket leak.
I'd suggest doing the same procedure to the drivers side,button it up,and drive it.When you get back,check for smoke. If you really want to be a glutton for punishment,quickly pull the rt.vale cover to see if you're greeted with a flood of oil.I'm betting that there'll be no flood,or smoke.
Thanks Cecil. I can certainly do that. One of the easier things for me to do.
Don, I'm going to do the other side (driver) tomorrow when I get back from the machine shop. It is tempting to pull the cover when hot.
After putting the passenger side valve cover on, started the engine. No smoke as usual. Went for a 40 minute ride and returned home. Left it running and checked the pipes. Driver side was emitting as usual. Didn't see anything on the passenger side. Pulled the car inside the garage and checked again with the same previous results on both pipes. I don't know if this was a coincidence or maybe I just didn't want to see anything from the passenger side. Later, took the car to a picnic in the mountains. The engine ran strong and maybe climbed to 185 depending on the length of the hill we had to climb. Arrived at the picnic and checked both pipes. Same result as the driveway. Returned home and checked outside and inside the garage. Same result. It appears that the right side might have stopped smoking. Either that or I'm not seeing it properly. The left side will get the attention it needs tomorrow. I hope this is more then a coincidence, Carmine.
Don, I'm going to do the other side (driver) tomorrow when I get back from the machine shop. It is tempting to pull the cover when hot.
After putting the passenger side valve cover on, started the engine. No smoke as usual. Went for a 40 minute ride and returned home. Left it running and checked the pipes. Driver side was emitting as usual. Didn't see anything on the passenger side. Pulled the car inside the garage and checked again with the same previous results on both pipes. I don't know if this was a coincidence or maybe I just didn't want to see anything from the passenger side. Later, took the car to a picnic in the mountains. The engine ran strong and maybe climbed to 185 depending on the length of the hill we had to climb. Arrived at the picnic and checked both pipes. Same result as the driveway. Returned home and checked outside and inside the garage. Same result. It appears that the right side might have stopped smoking. Either that or I'm not seeing it properly. The left side will get the attention it needs tomorrow. I hope this is more then a coincidence, Carmine.
Hi everyone. Hope this isn't too long. I suppose everyone is getting tired of reading about it, about as much as I am writing about it. I think there is light at the end of the tunnel. Went to the machine shop today with an old 348 head. Took a piece of speedo cable and showed the machinist Bob what I had done. Threaded it through the oil drain just like at home. We set the head up, angle and tilt, just like you'd find bolted to the block. He stuck a drill bit about the same size as the exit hole into the exit hole and stood back. You could see that the drill bit was tilted down inside the hole. Put the bit into the entrance hole and it was tilted down again. Where these two holes met inside created about a 90 degree angle to each other. They also created a very small valley at their meeting point. So here is what we concluded. The heads had been hot tanked and he would like to think the drains would have been cleaned during the normal course. But due to their design which he wasn't familiar with, he isn't 100% sure. (States that sbc and bbc drain holes all go directly down, straight, and drop into the lifter valley. There is no doubt that by design, oil in the drain hole has to travel uphill to get out. And the way it does it, is by accumulation in the pocket below the drain hole. I did this as an experiment at home. The drain hole will never be completely empty because of the small valley created in the bottom. This valley is like a trap in your kitchen sink. So, what we feel happened, is that the drains were partially plugged allowing an unusual accumulation of oil in the valve covers. The oil saturated and overwhelmed the valve guides and went down the valve stem and out the exhaust port. Never made it to the combustion chamber and this would explain how the engine performance was never affected by any fouling plugs. The oil actually started burning in the exhaust port (1200 degrees I'm told) giving off a faint blue color. In theory, it sounds good. I did see everything myself and it appeared to be reasonable to me.
Returned home and started to take the driver side valve cover off. Of course had to remove the alternator and the power brake booster. What a treat that was. Removed the cover and everything looked fine. Ran the speedo cable down the front drain hole just like I did the others. Reamed it well and a little bit of grayish goop similar to the other side. Nothing of any significance. Went to the rear hole and couldn't get the cable to work to save my life. Did it the same way as the other three holes but couldn't make penetration into the lifter valley. Tried everything. Pulled the cable out several times and didn't note anything of significance. A little grayish material but that was it. Continued trying with the same method and I could feel it like twisting into something. Just kept at it and finally I could see and feel the cable enter the lifter valley. Reamed this out well and removed the cable. Nothing really noted. Put the cable back in and out several times and it acted just like the other holes. I'm not sure why I had what I believe to be this blockage. Maybe old gasket material plugged the hole?? I then put it all back together and had to stop. Not sure where everybody is, but here its h-h-h. About 90 degrees and I was saturated and very warm. So tomorrow, I'll look it over again and then take it for a ride. It might need several rides to clear it up if in fact that was the problem. Will keep everyone posted, Carmine.
Returned home and started to take the driver side valve cover off. Of course had to remove the alternator and the power brake booster. What a treat that was. Removed the cover and everything looked fine. Ran the speedo cable down the front drain hole just like I did the others. Reamed it well and a little bit of grayish goop similar to the other side. Nothing of any significance. Went to the rear hole and couldn't get the cable to work to save my life. Did it the same way as the other three holes but couldn't make penetration into the lifter valley. Tried everything. Pulled the cable out several times and didn't note anything of significance. A little grayish material but that was it. Continued trying with the same method and I could feel it like twisting into something. Just kept at it and finally I could see and feel the cable enter the lifter valley. Reamed this out well and removed the cable. Nothing really noted. Put the cable back in and out several times and it acted just like the other holes. I'm not sure why I had what I believe to be this blockage. Maybe old gasket material plugged the hole?? I then put it all back together and had to stop. Not sure where everybody is, but here its h-h-h. About 90 degrees and I was saturated and very warm. So tomorrow, I'll look it over again and then take it for a ride. It might need several rides to clear it up if in fact that was the problem. Will keep everyone posted, Carmine.
If oil was making it around the valve guide/seals and burning at 1200 degree's there would be smoke. Also there would be smoke on start-up and you always state it doesn't smoke on start-up valve guides seals a-ok. After your test tomorrow and I hope by some luck your issue has been resolved. If not re-vert back to the orignal crankcase ventilation down draft system:-)
Yes, I hope tomorrow will resolve it. Regardless, I haven't forgotten about reverting back to the original road draft tube. Never any smoke that I recall on initial startup , Carmine.
Hey Carmine,
When all of the experienced approaches fail, go back to the shop manual. So I just went out to the garage and read through it all burning oil references rings and cylinder walls. The best referenced in the shop manual for your issue is they have not seated properly yet causing smoke.
Excessive oil consumption again out of the shop manual since you have no leaks. The reference is answer i. oil drain slots in intake manifold splash guard closed.
So if the shop manual is correct page 8-108, your going to have to pull the intake
good luck and keep us posted on the FIX!!!!!!
Happy Motoring Ted
When all of the experienced approaches fail, go back to the shop manual. So I just went out to the garage and read through it all burning oil references rings and cylinder walls. The best referenced in the shop manual for your issue is they have not seated properly yet causing smoke.
Excessive oil consumption again out of the shop manual since you have no leaks. The reference is answer i. oil drain slots in intake manifold splash guard closed.
So if the shop manual is correct page 8-108, your going to have to pull the intake
good luck and keep us posted on the FIX!!!!!!Happy Motoring Ted
Thanks Ted for doing the research and sharing it. I'm getting a pretty good education on the heads and oil drain. I also have a '61 "W" engine intake. You've captured my interest so tomorrow, I'm going to take a look at the intake and match it up to a head. Just curious to see how everything lines up. I have no leaks. Its the only car I own that doesn't leak but makes up for it with smoke. Think I prefer the leaks, Carmine.
I think it's promising that you found one hole to be very difficult. Button it up and drive it for awhile, could take a little time to burn off the accumulated oil in the pipes.
I am not tired of hearing about it Carmine, and I bet most if not all are not either. Someone will benefit from this info. I know I have. This is my first 409 and I didn't know those drain holes were 90 degrees. I am going to go out to the garage and look at a pair I have when I get a chance.