z11 single intake

[No409]

seeing all this nascar stuff, make me want to throw this question out.

i got my 409 from n.c. and the guy was a winston cup engine builder. My engine has a plate under the carb, like a heat spacer, that he told my was a old nascar piece. it has a p/n 3969835 stamped in it, a big W stamped in it, and the gm firing order. anyone know if its a legit piece for a W race motor? ill try to get pics of it next time im at my dads.

Thanks

 

[UK Racer]

Z11 beyond '63

If the "Z11" heads/intakes were intended to be race only parts I believe they wouldn't have had the heat riser passage to the carb.
this is a very very good point

-

To pick up on this point, I have the documents that show that Chevy got international (FIA) homologation racing paperwork for a 1964 Impala fitted with a Z-11 style 427 motor...
I've sent scans to one or two people on this site to see if anybody knows more about it.
Anyway, because that paperwork is on file I've started to build a '64 Impala 427 historic race car to run at the Goodwood Revival meeting (and others) for historic cars over here in Europe.
I'll post moer info once things get beyond the cutting out rust stage of preparing the shell!

Adam

 

[MK IISS]

Adam: I'm confused. I thought your documents of FIA homologation approval were for a 1964 Impala with a Mk II 427 engine not the Mk I Z11 427 engine. ??

 

[UK Racer]

Mk1 or MkII?

I'm certainly no expert, and I'm working from a set of scanned documents, but when I looked at the scans and the pictures of Z-11 and Mystery 427 motors it looked more like the Z-11 to me, but with a single piece intake.
I think it's possible that they put the documents together with pictures of whatever parts they had around with the intention of a final specification that never got built?


Long story short, the plan is to build a '64 with Aubrey building me a 409 stroked to 427 with a conventional 2x4 intake (once I get around to putting down the cash!).

Regards
Adam

 

[MK IISS]

Adam: Best of luck with your project. I'm sure everyone would like to see photos.

 

[oil4kids]

Richard

the only guys who SHOULD know the whole story on the 409 Z11 WERE the guys at the I-206 Chevrolet engineering department

W.J.POLKINGHORNE*
D.H.MCPHERSON
W.D.ROUTE
R.P.BENZINGER
E.H.MERTZ
B.H.HOWELL*
C.M.PETERSON
N.E. STACEL

AND PROBABLY V.PIGGINS

* wrote the SAE paper comparing the BBC and 409

 

[MK IISS]

Mark:

Good point. Zora Arkus-Duntov was also involved.

 

[oil4kids]

super chevy article

There is a article in this months Super Chevy July 06 called the Mark of chevy power by Paul Zazarine

Paul claims there is no blood line with the 409 and Mystery Motor but Paul, Tisk Tisk, the first Mysterys were just 90 degree 409 motors with the bigger 3.65 crank and the new porcupine heads

For example if you cut your brothers hair at 90 degrees instead of 74 degrees, he would still be your brother!

dont forget the 409 and the newer mystery bbc 396/ 427 have the same bore centers with almost identical cranks centers except for main bearing size and counter weights( and thrust area)

He claims the MArk III was like the MArk II but i believe the III was a radically different Packard Engine design that went nowhere

Paul should have included some early Smokey photos of His Mystery Motors which clearly show the old 409 under the new porcupine heads

http://www.348-409.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2300



Richard,,, any thoughts?

 

[MK IISS]

"Richard,,,any thoughts?"

Yeah....I'd be happy if I could cut my hair at any degree. I don't agree with the statement: "The first Mysterys were 90 degree 409 motors with the bigger 3.65 crank...."

Actually the first Mystery Engines a/k/a the Mk II had a 3.50 stroke crank. The Mk II didn't get the 3.65 crank until late Oct. 1962....long after the first engines were already running on the dyno.

I keep hearing that the "Mystery Motor" block was just a 409 block with 90 degree decks but the engineers who designed, built and tested the Mk II said the block was an all new casting. They claim the only thing the same was the pan rails and main bearing support bulkheads. So....Mark,... I have a question...If the Mk II block was the same casting as the 409 block (except for the deck angle) why don't the water pumps interchange?

The fact that two engines, the 409 and Mk II, have the same bore centers does not indicate the block castings are the same. The Mk IV (396/427/454/etc.) has the same bore centers and crankshaft-center to camshaft-center distance as the W engine but it's an entirely different block casting.

 

[MK IISS]

Paul Zazarine

http://www.yearone.com/leader_ads/Zazarine.html

 

[oil4kids]

I know about Paul, he was the editor of a pretty good mag called Muscle car review and is a Pontiac fan.


The original design 348 had a short span waterpump which pulled water from the upper cylinder area and then was re-engineered so the pump legs were widened to let the water circulate from the lower or outboard cylinder area.( i think i have an engineering photo of that)
If you look at Mystery engine the 409 waterpump would have to bolt right up against the freeze out plug to accomadate the higher 90 degree cylinder block. I think this was rehashed in a 1963 Hot Rod magazine called the 427 Mystery engine.

Yo may not like this, but i think the Mystery engine was remodified from the original truck only sandcastings from early 1957 prototype 348 with the inboard waterpump location. This was IMPORTANT to allow the waterpump to sit higher to allow a bigger crankshaft damper to be used

The original Mystery engine porcupine heads could not bolt on to the later 396/427big block chevy because the heads were not long enough. The bbc heads were rounded or machined off at the ends to fit the smaller 409 block.

 

[MK IISS]

Mark:

A few years ago I subscribed to a new musclecar magazine which was published in Lakeland Fl. I got screwed because it folded in a few months. I bet this Paul guy was involved with it.

About 6 or 7 years ago I stopped at Floyd Garrett's Muscle Car Museum. I always stopped there every year on my way back to Fl from visiting my parents up North. Anyway Floyd had a whole row of historical significant Chevy engines on display from the original '55 265 to a Mk IV. There was a Mk I/Z11 427 and a Mk II Mystery Engine sitting side by side. As I remember it there were a few noticable casting differences in the two engines but since it is from memory I can't prove it. I think just about any of us would have to see both engines side by side to be able to spot any exterior block casting differences, if any....that is other than the deck angle. However, I believe the Mk II's water inlet ports which line up with it's water pump are not in the same location on the front of the block as on the Mk I 427 engine. So it's not just a difference in the pumps....it's also a difference in the blocks. I believe this alone indicates a different block casting.

Last time I was at Garrett's museum the Mk II engine was gone. I think he sold off a lot of his stuff. Now many of the cars on display belong to other owners and are for sale. If you go to Floyd's web site: http://www.musclecarmuseum.com/ and take the virtual tour...look carefully... you can see the engine display lined up against one of the walls.

 

[oil4kids]

Nice museum, I had talked with Floyd at the 409 convention- He was not happy he sold off Bill Jenkins 63 Z11

Fran Prev was of help here but you know the story anyway. Tonawanda did the castings and thats where Fran worked. If he couldnt dig up history on the HD 427.

If you call Chevrolet headquarters asking for engineering history you pretty much get the i dont know answer- heck they hardly know who Louis Chevrolet is.

 

[MK IISS]

Fran Preve

Mark:

I would gladly leave this forum if Fran would consider coming back. I believe he has more useful knowledge to offer than I do. However we can't co-exist. Mark, why don't you ask him. Let me know.

 

[SS425HP]

Richard is to stay

Richard, forget it. You better stay, or I'm coming down there. Your knowledge is every bit as welcome as Fran's was. You hear me??????????

 

[real61ss]

"Richard, forget it. You better stay, or I'm coming down there"


Fred,
I'll help you if necessary!!!!!

 

[MK IISS]

Fred:

Thanks for the kind words but I believe what I said is true. I know some historical stuff but very few members care about it. Fran knows a lot about the assembly plants and the foundry, etc. etc., ...actual Chevrolet production... because he worked for Chevrolet. All important stuff that no other member of this forum knows, or at least as much. I know nothing about any of that stuff. Think about it.

I wish you would answer boug58's questions about the back seat of his 1958 Impala. You had a '58 Impala and I've heard you spent more time in the back seat than in the front.

 

[Bam59]

DON'T worry i'm only 65 miles away from Richard he ain't going nowere:takethat

 

[oil4kids]

Are you kidding me Richard-?

You and Fran had some great exhanges and that is what makes a great democracy- something our country used to have.

 

[oil4kids]

Rich

original 1957 early cast w block

notice where the waterpump would sit

the same position as the Mystery 409

they were able to reuse the original W design because the middle exhause valves were not next to each other raising the water temp- where most 409 block crack


Im sorry the original engineering 348 guys

Don H Mcpherson
John Rausch
Howard Kehrl

McPherson is always mentioned with the 348-409 and 396-427 so he must be one of the main engineers
I dont know if hes still around he would probably be around 90 or 100 years old in 2006

McPherson was also a lucky guy,he tested at least 3 -Z16 Chevelles before delivery- Floyg G has or had one of them, its red build Number 1 or 2