Cam gear and timing chain

[Carmine]

Hi everyone. Has anyone ever used a double roller timing chain and heavy duty cam gear in their rebuild?? I see they are offered as are OE pieces. Just wondering if they are worth the extra money?? Pretty much for a cruiser type engine. What about the crankshaft gear?? Are they all standard?? How do you tell when either gear is bad?? Would the teeth be more sharp then flat across, maybe like a bad ring gear?? Many thanks, Carmine.

 

[Don Jacks]

Carmine,the double roller chains are pretty much standard in all my builds.When you order the chain set,it will have both gears.A good way to avoid mistakes,and or mis matched parts is to order the complete "k" kit from Comp Cams.It will have every thing needed like cam,lifters,springs and retainers,locks,and the timing chain set.

 

[Carmine]

Carmine,the double roller chains are pretty much standard in all my builds.When you order the chain set,it will have both gears.A good way to avoid mistakes,and or mis matched parts is to order the complete "k" kit from Comp Cams.It will have every thing needed like cam,lifters,springs and retainers,locks,and the timing chain set.

OK. Thanks Don, Carmine.

 

[Carmine]

Carmine,the double roller chains are pretty much standard in all my builds.When you order the chain set,it will have both gears.A good way to avoid mistakes,and or mis matched parts is to order the complete "k" kit from Comp Cams.It will have every thing needed like cam,lifters,springs and retainers,locks,and the timing chain set.

Is there any secret to putting a timing chain on the crank and cam gear?? I've done this just a few times and I don't recall having a problem. I put my cam in today and I purchased a new double roller set from Comp Cam. Have both gears and the chain. Lined everything up properly and put the chain on the crank gear first. Put it on the cam gear next and no way would it go on to the cam shaft. I must have fooled with this for about 1.5 hours. The chain appears to be much too tight and I don't think it fits on the teeth properly either. I have zero wiggle room to work with. I then tried the old chain, which by the way is a double roller, and it went on nicely. Just like a remember. I don't know how old the old set is. Looks to be in decent shape. I tried moving the chain and both gears down their respective shafts evenly, but still no good. Because of the oil pan, there is no room for me to put the chain on the cam first and then the crank gear. I'm going out in the garage and try it again. Not because I can't get it, because that happens often to me, but I think this set is defective. I will give it another serious effort, but after that, it goes back and I use the old set. Thanks for any input, Carmine.

 

[skipxt4]

Carmine: Fold the new chain, and put it on top of the old chain, on the table. That will tell you, if you have the right chain. You are, installing the chain correctly.

 

[Don Jacks]

If the "old" chain is a double roller,it was replaced when the engine was rebuilt as the original chain was a link style chain that used the nylon coated teeth on the cam sprocket.The double rollers don't stretch much,and if installed,they don't have any slop in it,will be fine.It sounds like you have a chain that was made for a block that had been align bored,and your block wasn't,resulting with the new chain being too short.

 

[Carmine]

Thanks guys for your responses as usual. I do appreciate it very much. I gave it another good old college try and couldn't get it to work. That new chain is just not long enough and I really think it doesn't sit properly on the teeth of either gear. I know it's new and maybe a little stiff, but there is something wrong here. I did put one on top of the other and it appears, I can't be sure, that the old chain might be longer then the new one. So, I gave up. Quit. Hoisted up the white flag. I put the old set back on with no problem. Dots all lined up and cover on. I was hoping to never see the inside of that cover again, but I had a thought. Did I tighten the bolt that holds the gear on the cam?? I kind of left it a little loose to help with the new chain install, but it was no help at all. Now, I have 10 bolts and 2 nuts all tightened and holding the timing cover on. I know it has to come back off because I won't sleep right until I know for sure. Any little noise I hear in the engine, I'll think the cam gear is coming off. Off it comes and yes, I did tighten it. Some relief anyway. I also ordered a new HEI distributor. My car came with one which wasn't stock. This one gives the appearance of being old. I looked inside the cap and saw some partial burning of something metal like. I'm surprised the motor ran as well as it did. I don't know anything about these. Ordered a Proform one from Summit. Hopefully, I will have this back together the latter part of next week and try to fire it up, Carmine.

 

[La Hot Rods]

Most of the chains I have installed on any engine have been on the tight side by my thinking.
But if I had to force it on then I would get a different timing set.
And I have never taken one apart that didn't have some slop in it.
So that is why when I install a timing chain I degree it in and add 2 to 4 degrees of advance in depending on how long the chain it so when the chain stretches out you will be as spot on as you can be with out pulling the cover and checking and adjusting at that point.

To add to this advancing the cam will give better vacuum.

Sorry Carmine didn't mean to make your head swim.

 

[Carmine]

That's ok LHR. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. The one that I am reusing isn't real tight. It does push in on the sides some. I couldn't find anyone to degree in this cam. No house calls. They want to work on it in their shop. I'm not pulling the motor for that. So, I'll do the best I can. Something interesting though. Before pulling the old cam, I lined up the hash mark on the balancer with the "0" on the timing cover. I pulled the distributor cap and the rotor wasn't pointing exactly to number 1 in the cap. It didn't have much to go, but wasn't dead on. I'm wondering if this observation means that the old cam might have been degreed in, not that it matters, Carmine.

 

[La Hot Rods]

That could just be the advance that is in the ignition timing.

 

[Mearl]

Carmine, this may sound dumb but are you putting the chain on the crank gear, then on the cam gear and then sliding it on the cam? They don't have much slack so they can't fit over one or the other gears.

 

[Carmine]

I previously bought a harmonic balancer install tool made by Proform. It came as a kit with many different threaded ends to fit I guess every application out there. I already had the tool, but it was for my Chevy's and it wouldn't thread into the crank of the Pontiac which had a bigger bolt. Kind of a plain, forward approach to using it. Came with some directions which I followed. I lined up the balancer on the crank and keyway and began using this tool. The nut that gets turned against the bearing which pulls the harmonic balancer on, is 15/16's. I turned for a short time and didn't think I was getting anywhere with it. The nut was sinking deeper into the balancer and almost impossible to put the wrench on. I decided to remove the tool. Well, the tool came apart. The end that was attached to the tool and screwed into the crank, stayed in the crank. The bearing was also lodged in there. I was able to get the one piece out of the crank, but not the bearing. The bearing was tight. I tried several different things and finally used my slide hammer with a small hook. A few little taps and out it came. I then took the balancer and put it back on the crank snout and it sliped on a short distance. Threaded the bolt and washer in the crank and the balancer went on with no problem at all. Not sure what I might have done wrong to cause this problem initially. Maybe I didn't have the crank stud portion of the tool, as tight as it should have been. Really don't know. I do know it's going back Monday morning, Carmine.

 

[Carmine]

Carmine, this may sound dumb but are you putting the chain on the crank gear, then on the cam gear and then sliding it on the cam? They don't have much slack so they can't fit over one or the other gears.

I don't recall exactly, but I did try every method possible. I felt that the chain had to go on the crank gear first to have any chance of installation because of the oil pan lip. That was the best/closest approach I had. I still feel the chain was a bit to short. The old one went on with no issue. I did notice that the cam which slid back and forth slightly, didn't help. I used a wooded wedge behind one of the lobes to keep it in one place. Solved that problem and it went back together fine. Presently, I'm trying to install the factory a/c condenser. What a pita. I took it apart but can't get it back together. I have a few hours in it already. Going to try again this morning. If not successful, in the box it goes with all the other a/c parts. This is causing me too much aggravation. Let the next owner worry about it, like I had originally thought, Carmine.

 

[La Hot Rods]

The Pontiac that I have worked on the balancer was just a slip fit not a press on.

 

[Don Jacks]

Same here James,and I've replaced the chain and gears in a bunch of them.

 

[La Hot Rods]

Yeah Don most around 70.000 miles and would have to replace a push rod or 2

 

[Carmine]

You guys are all correct. It is a slip fit. I didn't need this tool to begin with so I can't blame the tool for that, Carmine.

 

[Carmine]

I'm having a real mental block. I just can't figure out where to find #1 in the HEI cap. I'm so use to Chevys and the points distributor where they tell you #1 is past the screw, window, etc., that I'm really loss. I looked on line so as not to bother anyone, but I still don't get it. I know for a fact, my #1 cylinder is on compression, so from what I read, you just drop the distributor in and as long as it seats properly with the oil pump, wherever the rotor points, that would be #1 in the cap?? Couldn't you move the oil pump so that the distributor rotor could point to any of 8 positions inside the cap?? The firing order of the Pontiac is the same as Chevy, but counter clockwise in rotation. So, to sum this up, drop the distributor in making sure it seats properly with the oil pump, wherever the rotor points will be #1 in the cap. Follow the firing order and rotation and that's it?? Somehow, I just don't think this is right. If someone could explain in laymen's terms a little better, I'd appreciate it. Thank you. Carmine.

 

[La Hot Rods]

Looks like #1 would be at 1 o clock

 

[La Hot Rods]