Cam gear and timing chain

[La Hot Rods]

Carmine I am glad you called.
Sometimes a spoken word is easier to understand than just the written word.
Hope you soon have that GTO needing Gas Tires and Oil.

 

[Carmine]

Carmine I am glad you called.
Sometimes a spoken word is easier to understand than just the written word.
Hope you soon have that GTO needing Gas Tires and Oil.

Me too. Can't wait to smell the smoke in the air coming off those tires. Can't do it too often though. Those red lines are expensive . Thanks again LHR, Carmine.

 

[Carmine]

Well, my friend came up and we put the rest of the motor back together. When I tell you I studied, studied and restudied the timing marks, TDC, the rocker arms, lifters in their bore, the rotor in the distributor and anything else in relationship to the timing, I did. Spent a lot of time looking and thinking. I was positive I had it right. Would have made a small wager. Went to start the car and it back fired and the carb. showed a little fire which went right out. My limited experience tells me the distributor is in ass backwards. Pulled the wires and cap. Brought it up on TDC. Took out the spark plug to #1 cylinder and I could feel the piston was up. The rotor was pointing to #6 tower. Pulled the distributor and pointed the rotor to #1 tower. Put it back in and tried it again. A little more gas in the carb. and the thing popped right off. Remarkable how I just knew I had the timing right. Yup. Timing is not my thing.
After starting, had the engine at a constant 2200-2500 rpm's. It sounded real nice. Smooth and 18" of vacuum for my power brakes. Yeah. I only ran it for about 7 minutes and had to shut it off because the temp. started going north of 230 degrees. Had the radiator cap on tight and went to release it some and much steam started coming out. Let it cool down to about 160 or so and took the cap off. Put more antifreeze in and started the motor again. Unbelievable, but the motor starts with a very small turn of the ignition switch. Ran it again for about 7 minutes then had to shut it off because of the temp. Let it cool and went and purchased more antifreeze. Filled it to about 3" from the top and my friend held his hand with a rag over the filler tube thinking the motor had an air bubble and might need to be burped. Started the motor again and same story. About 7 minutes and that was it. I turned the ignition off while it was still at about 2500 rpm's, and you talk about burping. He couldn't hold it back with a rag. This thing was puking big time. Gave a stream like a geyser. What a mess. So, we stopped for the day. Going to run it for another 5 minutes or so and this should collectively give me the cam break in time that I need. I didn't attempt any timing yet because I want to finish breaking in the cam, but it must be pretty close the way it starts. Need to have it at idle and I haven't tried that yet. But, my problem now is, it running hot and spilling out the antifreeze like it does. Never had this issue before. It takes about 7 minutes at that RPM to get it up to about 230 degrees and then the fun starts. I think my timing is close. If it was retarded too much, wouldn't it be tougher to start and cause an over heating problem??? Any thoughts or suggestions would really be appreciated. Mucho gracias, Carmine.

 

[Don Jacks]

When it cools back down,remove the thermostat and fill the engine.Button it back up and fill the radiator.Run it with the cap off until the coolant starts circulating,fill it,then put the cap on.Pontiacs with the factory heads don't need or like a lot of timing,so while it's at 2500,set the timing at 32 degrees with the vac.advance unhooked.Once that's done hook the vac.advance back up.After about 10 more minutes,lower the engine speed to an idle,unhook the vac.line to your dist.and set the timing.

 

[Don Jacks]

Another thing you can do to make sure that the engine is full is to remove the heater hose that goes into the cylinder head back by the dist.Fill the block as described until the coolant starts coming out at the back,then re attach the heater hose and proceed as above.

 

[Carmine]

Got it Don. TYVM. My timing tab on the timing cover doesn't go up to 32 degrees. 14 at the most. My timing light is an older one and just times; no read out. Should I get a different light?? Timing tape?? Everything else I understand, Carmine.

 

[oldskydog]

If you know what initial timing you want, set it static before starting like I illustrated in an earlier post. that way you don't have to waste run time trying to set the timing and can go right to break in. I've never had one fail to start right up doing it that way.

 

[La Hot Rods]

Sounds like your timing is good till you get the overheating and cam broke in takin care of.
Did you have the water pump off the timing cover?

 

[Carmine]

If you know what initial timing you want, set it static before starting like I illustrated in an earlier post. that way you don't have to waste run time trying to set the timing and can go right to break in. I've never had one fail to start right up doing it that way.

I thought that was a great idea Cecil and I did try it. I couldn't get the light to blink. I did ask around and some thought maybe this method wouldn't work with an HEI because of something being too fast internally. They said if might be better geared for a points setup. When you did this, were you using an HEI? Since I have the timing close, it's worth another try.

LHR-the water pump is integrated into the timing cover. There is what I believe called a divider plate between the impeller and the timing cover itself.
I looked at a video on YouTube about some who have slightly pounded this plate down, closing the gap between the plate and impeller, thus not allowing much fluid to escape and therefore gets circulated better. At least that is my understanding. They claim is has helped a lot with their running hot problems. When I had mine apart, I looked at it and the distance between the two, only appeared to be about 3/16ths of an inch. I used a body hammer and went around the hole and closed the distance some. Nothing is hitting. Not sure how much this will help in my case. I've seen overheating and boiling over before, but nothing like what I saw yesterday. This fluid was actually being regurgitated, like in vomiting. It was coming out with some pressure. Not just flowing. Going to try what Cecil and Don recommended today. Get it ready for tomorrow afternoon and will give it another try. Also need about another 5-7 minutes at high rpm to finish the cam break in. Thanks everyone, Carmine.

 

[oldskydog]

You're probably right about HEI.something has to trigger the light. Works great on points and mags.

 

[Carmine]

Maybe Cecil. I don't know myself. I'd be the last one to know. It was just something mentioned during conversation and I remembered it. I think my experience with timing, speaks volumes of what I think I know, but don't.

As like James aka La Hot Rod did, Don Jacks also offered for me to call him which I did. We spoke yesterday for the better part of an hour about some present and possible future issues with my car. Like many others here, Don has a lot of knowledge and experience, of course I don't have to tell anyone that, willing to share and help others. I'm grateful for him taking the time to talk with me. A very pleasant conversation and also nice to meet and hear a voice behind what you read here. Thanks Don. I do appreciate it, Carmine.

 

[Dick MacKenzie]

There are some fantastic, knowledgeable people frequenting this forum. At fear of leaving many out I will say Don and Cecil are sure near the top of the list. I really appreciate their input and always pay attention when they post! Thanks for being here for us guys!!!

 

[Carmine]

Ditto on that one Dick.

Went out to the garage today and followed Don's advice as to removing the thermostat and filling the block with water. Put in a new thermostat and the car started right up. Finished the cam break in period. Ran it another 10 minutes. Temp. went to about 205 and stopped. No overheating or boil over. Let it idle for a few minutes while I get my timing light and vacuum gauge together. Temp. went down to about 175-180 degrees and stayed there. Have a 180 thermostat in the motor. What a great idea that was. Began trying to adjust and fine tune the motor. The RPM's in neutral are about 900. In drive they reduce to 800. I have about 20" of vacuum. Maybe a bit better. My problem is the vacuum advance. I took a look at the timing before unplugging the vacuum advance line. The vacuum advance is fed from a port in the intake manifold. Without undoing anything, my timing was at 12 degrees. I can get 14 degrees which I prefer, but probably not much more then that because the vacuum can hits the heater hose inlet. I then unhooked my vacuum advance line and the engine barely ran. It stalled in a very short time. I had my finger over the port in the intake, so I don't think that caused it. Put the line back on and the car started and ran fine. This time I had the timing light ready and pulled the line again. From what I could see before the engine stalled, the timing mark was way above the "O" on the timing tab, in the ATDC area. Something not quite right here. I timed some Chevy engines before, and they might die down some when pulling the vacuum advance line, but would stay running. Once I pull the line on this motor, it dies almost immediately. I was thinking about finding maybe a carbureted source of vacuum for the advance, but don't think that matters. Once the distributor loses its vacuum, it stops running. Also, before trying to make any adjustments, with the old cam installed, the idle was around 900 or so. With the new cam, the idle went to 1500 RPM's. I turned it down to the 800-900 RPM range. Never had this happen before. Any idea's on what to do or maybe what causes this?? Thank you, Carmine.

 

[La Hot Rods]

Set your timing with the vacuum advance disconnected.

 

[Jim Sullivan]

Disconnect and plug the vacuum line at the vacuum advance.

 

[Carmine]

Set your timing with the vacuum advance disconnected.

That's the problem, as soon as I unhook the vacuum advance line, the engine won't stay running. Dies almost immediately. I was unplugging it at the port in the intake. I quickly put my finger over the hole and it died anyway. As Jim mentioned, I never plugged the line that goes to the vacuum advance. Didn't know I should. I only plugged the port. I can certainly try the other. The motor runs well until unplugging the vacuum advance line, Carmine.

 

[La Hot Rods]

You are setting your timing with the vacuum advance hooked up.
So unhook the vacuum hose turn your distributor clockwise a little then start your engine if it dies again turn it a little more clockwise then it should stay running so you can set your base timing then hook up the vacuum advance.

 

[Carmine]

You are setting your timing with the vacuum advance hooked up.
So unhook the vacuum hose turn your distributor clockwise a little then start your engine if it dies again turn it a little more clockwise then it should stay running so you can set your base timing then hook up the vacuum advance.

I never really got the chance to set my timing properly. I only looked at it quickly with the vacuum advance hooked up to see where it was at. This was just out of curiosity. I saw it at 12 degrees and then tried to unhook the vacuum advance to set it correctly. As soon as I did this, the engine almost immediately died. Never had the chance to move anything. I certainly have plenty of room to turn it clockwise. Maybe a good 1/4 turn before hitting the firewall. I will give that a try. I was just thinking also, that when the motor first started, it idled at about 1500 RPM which it didn't do with the old cam. About 900 with the old one. I got the idle down to 800-900 because I thought that's where it should be to set the timing. Now I'm wondering if I had left the idle at 1500RPM's, undid and plugged the vacuum line, by turning the distributor clockwise to get the proper timing, if the idle would have come down on it's own, therefore the motor would have stayed running allowing me the opportunity to time it. Maybe it wouldn't have died. Hmmm....................., Carmine.

 

[Don Jacks]

If the engine is dying without the vac.advance,your timing is too low.You're going to have to reposition that dist.so you can adjust it to get what the engine wants.

 

[Carmine]

If the engine is dying without the vac.advance,your timing is too low.You're going to have to reposition that dist.so you can adjust it to get what the engine wants.

That's exactly what it is doing. I was afraid of that. Any suggestion as to how or where to reposition it to?? Are you talking about pulling the distributor out and doing something with it?? Oh boy, Carmine.