180 Degree Headers on a 409

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
Some of you might have noticed the 55 Chevy up on jack stands in the background of the pictures jim409_pontiac posted...

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We were out racing last weekend and the tranny started to slip.:grumble So I pulled it out and brought it down to my tranny guy. With a little luck it'll be ready in time for Thompson.

Anyway, while the car was up on jacks I decided to go ahead and build a new set of headers, the old ones were cracking pretty badly in a few spots.
For some time I've been wondering how this car would sound with 180 degree headers. 180 degree headers have two tubes from each side that cross over to the other bank. The make the car sound different. GT40 Fords and Pantera's had them. They were nicknamed a "bundle of snakes" here's a picture...

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It's hard to make them work in a normal chassis but I figured with the straight axle on the 55 I would have room to pass the tubes under the pan. So here's what I ended up with.

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Here they are painted white.

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There is supposed to be a small horsepower advantage if you can get the tubing lengths right but in my case that was pretty much impossible so if I break even I'll be happy. Rather than try to get equal length primaries I aimed for hitting the second harmonic on the long tubes and the third harmonic on the short ones.
I started it up and it does sound different but I'll have to wait until I run it down the track at Thompson to find out how much difference there is in the sound. (I hope they get my tranny done in time) These kinds of headers are sometimes used on circle track cars but I've never heard them on a drag car.

Here's a link to a kit car with a mild smallblock Chevy that has 180 degree headers. You'll notice that it sounds more like a "flat crank" V8 like you'd find in a Ferrari.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65Jt3K3SU9Y&feature=relmfu
The 55 won't sound that smooth because of the unequal length primaries but I'm hoping it'll have a bit of that high reving sound quality.
Here's a Corvette with 180 degree headers, skip to the near the end of this video to hear the car accelerate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSZTbR6C6Lw
And here's a GT40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eKlSqXNfIo&feature=related
 

64ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
WOW!! You did an awesome job on those. Wish I could make it to Thompson. Would love to hear those, and see everyone.
 
Looks like 2" tube, Jim... yes ?
Crazy stuff, man:eek:bow
Yes, gone will be the heavy sound of the traditional North American V8 engine. Should be VERY smooth sounding, especially at RPM.
I think Mercedes V8 crank also has has seperate throws for each rod... giving it an even firing pattern on either bank.
 

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
Yeah, 2" tubes and we tapered some 4" truck exhaust pipes to bring the 3 1/2" collector out to 4 inches.
I think it's going to sound OK. It's not a lot different at an idle but it does sound pretty good when it's reved up.
I'll just have to wait and see. I just couldn't get enthused about building the exact same headers as I already had.
I've always thought the GT40's sounded good. If I can get some of that sound and add it to the great sound of a 409 it might turn out OK.
Here's a short video of GT40 accelerating. I think these older ones had 427ci engines and of course the 180 degree exhaust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN-J4Jydnkc
 

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
They look great. How much doe's the 55 weigh?

Probably about 15 lbs more than it did yesterday.:scratch:cry(the new headers added some weight)

I think it's just a bit under 3,400 lbs sitting on the starting line with a driver.

Just as a comparison, Jim's Pontiac weighs about 200 lbs less and it has iron heads and a full roll cage.
The plan with the Pontiac is to get one of Bob's aluminum blocks, aluminum heads and a lighter transmission. (powerglide):cry That should bring it pretty close to 3,000 lbs with a driver.
 

real61ss

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 8
They look great!!! I had a friend some years ago that ran a W motor in a round track car with 180 degree headers. Everyone called it the "bumble bee car" because of the sound. Very high pitched almost an Indy car sound. His car had a dry sump so getting the pipes from one side to the other wasn't as difficult.
 

k9hotrodder409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 15
Jim , What an awesome job !!! :clapI can't wait to see that '55 at Thompson again. I drooled all over it last year. :loveI would love to hear that new sound from a 409.:cool:

:crazy:cheers
 

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
Everyone called it the "bumble bee car" because of the sound. Very high pitched almost an Indy car sound.

Yeah, I'm hoping it's no TOO high pitched.:scratch Just reving it up here in the shop it sounds pretty deep but more raspy than it was.
I think the 4" exit size on the collectors will help keep the pitch a little lower and the uneven length primaries should reduce the smooth sound that these kind of headers usually make. I hope I like the sound because I'm going to have to live with it. I sure don't feel like building another set of headers.

My main concern right now is getting my transmission back in time to go.
 

oldskydog

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 10
Great looking work Jim, but I just hope it still sounds like a 409. I can't imagine why anyone would want their car to sound like a Maserati.
 

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
Maserati is not the sound I'm aiming for. I hope that's not what I end up with.:cry
Here's the way my car sounds now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOSXpwj6DkI
I can't imagine that crossing over a couple of pipes will make that big engine sound like a smaller sports car engine. It sure doesn't sound like a sports car when I rev it in the shop.:beer
I did like the way the car sounded when it had the higher reving 348
If I can get a bit of that high reving sound back I'll be happy.
 

Barry Taylor

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
I think the sound that Jim wants to here is the anouncer saying that good looking 55 Chevy just ran a 9.90 at 135 MPH :clap
 

Don Jacks

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 3
:laughSuch an anouncement would likely be followed by the following,"Please report to the tech area":rub
 

Skip FIx

Well Known Member
I have a late model asphalt car that has them with a SBC. Sounds like a giant Kawasaki Ninja to me.
 

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
I just wanted to finish off this thread, just in case somebody was wondering how the 180 degree headers sounded.

I have to admit I was a little afraid that my 409 might sound like a big Kawasaki but it turns out it sounded OK.
It does sound a little different, maybe a bit smoother at higher rpm's but it's not a day and night difference.
One of the guys I race with regularly did notice the sound and asked if I got a new engine or something.
My et's were good. We only ran 1/8th mile this year but looking at last years best 1/4 mile timeslip, ( 10.19 ) I ran a little quicker through the 1/8 th mile this year. I think I would have run about 10.17 if we had run the full 1/4 mile. My 60' times were also the best ever at 1.35
So, while I don't think I gained a ton of power, I don't think I lost any either.
One of these days I'll get a video of the car on a single pass and post it and an old video so that we can hear the difference in the sound.
 
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