283 Crank and rod question

[pappoo07]

I bought a crank and bearing kit for my 283. It came with size .10 bearings. I installed the kit into my engine but couldn't torque the rods to specs. The mains were fine however. I then bought .020 bearings for the rods, and was able to torque them. The engine now drops oil pressure after it heats up, and I'm just wondering if the crank/rod combo is the cause of it. According to the mechanic that recently looked over the engine, the rods have a "small journal." I'm just wondering if I have a incompatible setup.

I plan on tearing the engine down tomorrow and taking the rods and crank to a machine shop to get measurements on them to see if they match up. Some friends just told me they do not, but I would like to know from you guys before I waste my time taking them there. I'm new to all this so if I'm not making any sense, I apologize.

 

[1911]

small journal cranks were 2.30" main 2.00" rod standard. Medium journal 2.45"main 2.100"rod. Large[400] 2.65"main 2.100"rod. all 283's were small journal. If you ordered and recieved the correct kit for a 283 than you should have small journal bearings. Whenever you rebuild an engine, before you order any parts, all components must be inspected and measured. If you were trying to crush .010" oversized bearings onto a standard 2.000" journal than I could understand the couldn't torque it part which should also have locked up the crank but then you say you installed .020" oversized and got them to torque which doesn't make sense either. That should have been even worse. You can not guess at the journal diameters when building an engine, or bore size or anything else. Good dial calipers are a must and can get you by, but micrometers with the vernier scale to read tens of thousandths and will lock are the only/ best way to check shaft taper and out of round. If I understand you correctly than you don't know the exact diameters or you would have known the correct bearings to order and that the kits bearings were wrong. Start over and hope nothing was damaged beyond repair. Have the crank shop measure the crank. Many good books are available to take you step by step thru a rebuild and if you follow it exactly then a rebuild will go trouble free. Don't give up! hearing an engine that YOU just rebuilt sing for the first time is a great feeling. I've done hundreds and that feeling doesn't go away. By the way, 15 years as a heavy mechanic, chevy garage, engine builder at a shop that specializes in alcohol 410 sprinter engines, etc... hundreds is being modest. so any joe pro reading this feel free to fire away.

 

[1911]

By the way, the crank kits are supposed to come with the correct bearings, but I've had two in the past which had the wrong bearings. I've even had one crank with two different diameters. Trust no one but yourself and measure everything, including new parts and don't give the other guy a chance to screw you.

 

[pappoo07]

Thanks for the encouragement 1911. I couldn't remember the bearing sizes, but I checked one of the bearing boxes that came with the crank and it says .10.. NOT .010. Is .10 even a bearing size? I might be reading that wrong however. There is another sticker on the box that says 2020CP10.. so maybe they were in fact .020 bearings that were sent.. or maybe larger bearings sent in the wrong box? I really have no idea. My dad was leading this rebuild but its becoming apparent to me that he doesn't know as much as he thought he knew. I guess his memory of these engines is getting fuzzy. Basically everything I'm posting here is from what I remember him telling me so I apologize if I was confusing.

But anyway here's the good part. In the past year and a half (since when we first put the crank kit in) the car probably hasn't been driven more than 50 miles. So I doubt anything has been badly damaged from the incorrect parts. As I mentioned, I will be tearing the engine apart tomorrow, so I will hopefully do it on my own the correct way this time. I will have the shop measure my crank and look at my rods and bearings to let me know what I did wrong. Hopefully they will be able to set me up with the right parts. Again, thanks for your help and encouragement and if I run into any snags, I'll be posting them here!

 

[1911]

sounds like a good plan. I couldn't get to sleep thinking about this so before anyone calls me on playing fast and loose with my terms, I choose the word oversized carefully because it didn't look like you understood that the hole in the assembled rod and bearing gets smaller as you increase the undersize of a bearing. Anyway if you had an interference problem with a .010 under bearing a .020 under would have been worse. If I was at the shop I'd look that number up to be sure but normally the 10 at the end of the part number would mean .010" undersize. Most cranks that have been ground have the undersize stamped on a counterweight, but with kits it depends on who did the work. I've had bearings stamped in metric and every mfg. seems to identify the undersize their own way. clevite & federal mogul normally in thousandths. I would guess the .10 on your bearings means .010" under but guessing don't cut it. Thats why it's so important to measure everything. Even on rods we resize they get torqued and measured with the bearings installed and the crank then measured to determine oil clearance. I didn't go that far in my dealer days, just measured the crank and made sure I had the right size bearing, then used plastigage to be certain. But when you said you jumped from a .010 under to a .020 under without measuring my jaw dropped. I can't believe you could still turn the crank! If you haven't turned the engine upside down yet, don't. Pull the filter can and look for debris in the bottom of the can, if you've converted it to a spin on then cut the top off the filter without turning it upside down and pull the paper element and look for debris in the bottom. If you see anything you don't like then pull the pan off with the engine right side up so any junk in the pan stays in the pan. You can get a good idea of what if any problems you have by the debris. Once the pan is off if you see any main caps or rods that have turned black [heat/carbonized oil] those are problems. If a rod cap won't slip off the rod bolts once its off the knurled part of the bolt then I'd scrap that rod. You said you drove it 50 miles, didn't it knock, act like it had no power or was loosing power? Anyway let me know what you find out. I worked with a mechanic in Grand Rapids Mi. 20 years ago and He made a similar mistake, His 454 only lasted about 5 miles before welding itself solid.

 

[pappoo07]

I get what you're saying. There's two stickers on the bearing box that came with the crank. There's one that says "2020CP10", then there's another that says "3905CP.10". The brand is McQuay-Norris. I think it was a cheap crank kit ordered out of JC Whitney. I'll cut the oil filter and see if there's any metal pieces in it, althought it was just put in a year ago, while very few miles on it.. I'd say 20-30.

Driving the car, I did notice a slight loss of power, but no knocks or anything of the sort. My dad said there's a slight noise from the bearings rattling, but nothing my inexperienced ear could pick up. I'm not sure when I will get the parts to the engine shop, but hopefully I'll have the motor completely disassembled tomorrow. I think it will be a good learning experience for me. The engine already has problems, so I'm not too concerned about screwing it up more . I'll be sure to post any discoveries I make. Thanks again for your insight. It is very appreciated.

 

[dq409]

One of the best recommendations 1911 made was get a good book on building SBC`s !
You will learn alot and once you read the book the mystery of building an engine will be gone and you will have the basic principals.
They really are not that had to rebuild once the machine work is done properly and you have the correct parts.

 

[Fran Preve]

'poo07: (I'm watching NHRA Sportsman racing from Gainsville right now), anyway, I'll post here instead of the Ebay site, this one is better.
Hit print, make copies of all this.

1911 has given you excellant advice, dq's comments were good too. Frankly "newbie" is being kind, man you need HELP!. But that's GOOD, because that's how you learn. I have dozens and dozens of magazine articles on how to rebuild a small block, couple of books too, and the FIRST thing to do is take their advice and go to a speed shop and buy a book on rebuilding a small block. Then read cover to cover, then read it again. If you got any questions post here and a bunch of guys will help you. There are two ways to do this, my way, the way I learned, or 1911's way, the RIGHT way, the BEST way. My way is quick and dirty, and works, and gets you thru your first rebuild, and first start up, point being, you can spend a lot of money, or get your feet wet spending a little.

Before this goes any farther, how torn down is this motor NOW?. If the crank is out, and the rods, are the rods off the pistons?. This would change what I said on the ebay sales site. What did you do with the pistons and rings?. From what you said, like 1911 said, something doesn't compute, we need to know more. I think this might be better as a "practice" motor, and you should do what I said about chasing down a good running 350 and then doing what I said to that. No, it's not a total rebuild, but your not experianced enough to go whole hog right now. Leave the block and heads togther, do a cam/manifold change, get it back together, get it running, get what 1911 calls the "feeling', then do more as you gain experiance, and money!.

Start over, buy the rebuilding book, keep it simple, and DON'T spend money. Maybe when your ready you can do a 409 all by your own self, I think you can, with help. But right now you sound like your in over your head for your experience.

 

[pappoo07]

Alright Fran (and others).. here's where I'm at..

Did some disassembling for a few hours on Wednesday, got everything to the point where the block is almost ready to come out. All I need to do is unbolt it from the tranny and unbolt it from the mounts. The heads are still on the block. Intake is off. I don't really mind this being a 'practice' motor.. I was basically jumping into it with the idea of practice/learning in mind.

So what you're saying is I should just stop disassembling and buy a book? Usually I like to learn things through experience, but I think the book might be my best bet, since I'm pretty inexperienced at all this. The upside of it all is that my available funds will be growing as I sit and educate myself over the next few weeks. I think I could have over enough for a 409 in a year from now, but my goal this year was to get the car on the road by APRIL at the LATEST. I'd really hate to have it sit another year. I've hopefully got many years ahead of me to get a 409, so waiting until next year for one doesn't seem rational at this time when I just want to drive the car.

I'll look around over the next few days for a SBC rebuilding book. Although I'm not a big fan of reading, I'll suck it up and do it. I really think it will be worth it in the end.

 

[Fran Preve]

Poo, poo, poo, what are we (am I) going to do with you?. It's late, I'm tired, I'll respond to this last post tomorrow evening. In the mean time (and I wish you were in the same town as me so I could come over and hold your hand!). You MUST find a book on rebuilding the small block, you MUST have a speed shop close by, and they all have book racks, get one on the basics. YOU CAN NOT LEARN WITHOUT ONE!, or having an EXPERIENCED person hold your hand!. You've already found out what happens when you "go it alone". Rebuilding an engine is a piece of cake, ONCE YOU KNOW HOW!. You don't. You can and will learn, and once you do you'll be proud. In the meantime, you can NOT do anything but a quick and dirty rebuild in the next month, doing it MY way, searching out a car etc will take you into May and June at least. Maybe someone can come up with a better answer.................................later.

 

[1911]

Not knowing what Fran's down & dirty method is, I'll say that every engine I've ever encountered that was rebuilt by a novice alone exhibited major problems. The root of these problems was always the lack of knowledge required to identify a problem and what would be the correct repair. The probability of building an engine right, by the seat of your pants, is slim to none! I have seen rebuilding books which take you step by step which will keep you out of trouble, but the reading is all tech and very dry. I personally read everything printed by the best known builders to find out what mods they make for more power/reliability in a racing environment. This keeps my interest, gives me ideas and each new book tells me something I didn't know. These types of books should suppliment the dry reading manual, and as you learn and understand the more detailed work of race engine prep & building the steps shown in the basic manual will make more sense. As far as throwing a cam in a stocker engine, books by Smokey, Grumpy, Lingenfelter, all do a good job of explaining things like high lift cams having reduced base circles requireing longer pushrods to correct valvetrain geometry, dynamic cyl. pressure loss with more overlap, higher compression pistons require the crank to be rebalanced on and on. You may already know all this stuff, but the factory spent alot of time designing parts to complement each other and fit and clear other parts, etc... So if you plan on making any modifications like a cam change use the cool books to show you what effects the new parts have on the entire system. We keep busy at the shop because people try to do it themselves without learning these things first, every part has to work together with all the others and knowing which parts will work together is why were in business. It's not that you can't learn most of what a speed shop knows, it's that most people won't take the time to learn, and most of what there is to know is in print. P.S. I'm not saying speed shops are unnecessary and if you memorize all these books then you'll know as much as the speed shop, as experience is priceless. It would however be refreshing to have a new customer which spoke my language and not the 3/4 race cam, can we use these parts I bought at a swap meet crap. Anyone who asks what I think while at the shop will first get a gentle quiz, and if they know enough that I can talk to them at or near my level then they get more answers because I don't have time to teach basic 101 internal combustion. The moral is the more you know, the more the people with answers will be willing to spend time talking with you.

 

[jester]

Hmmmmmmmmmm

The wind is blowing in a different direction.

 

[1911]

spoken like a true 409 ahhhhh enthusiast. sorry 409's were something which I would pass on in my youth as mark IV's were more in my price range and parts were more plentiful. That said I kick myself every day for passing on 2 409's at a local bone yard when I was 16, but who knew, muscle cars were used for winter beaters back then and I thought the 409 was cool but what the heck would I ever do with them. My interest was only recently revived with the opportunity to play with a couple. This guy, with a little help, should have no problem getting his car on the road with a minimal expense using the SBC sounds like the 409's in his plan but if he's going to learn on something then the 283 is a good choice, and anything one does should be done to the best of his abilities. blah, blah, blah...

 

[dq409]

Poo,,, With your time frame and lack of experience I still say a crate or local rebuilt long block would be the way to go, and might, no,,,, "WILL" be cheaper.
Here locally you can get an engine from several reputable rebuilders cheaper then you can have just the machine wook done. And you get a warrantee !
I know you want to learn but having a good running engine without any problems is more fun ! A LOT MORE FUN !!!!
Once you have that you can learn the basics as in, tuning, upgrades and keeping it in top form.
It`s the little things overlooked that turn a fun engine project into a very expensive learning nightmare !
BELIEVE ME !!!! Even with my knowledge I`m just coming out of a VERY long expensive nightmare !!!!
If you truely want to learn to rebuild an engine do it AFTER your car is running with a good engine and you ARE NOT racing the clock !!!!
These last few posts are good infoand advice and we are just trying to point you in the right direction.
Good luck,,,,,dq

 

[63z11]

Im with DQ!

Hey poo, Like dq said. The crate motor route is probably a better choice right now. Its nice of Fran and 1911 to try and help you out but, for what you can buy a done small block for YOU would be better off. Wait a couple years, learn some things and then give it a shot. JMO Eric

 

[Fran Preve]

I agree with that last post, check around your area and see what engine shops are selling long blocks (block and heads) then put your 283 parts on it and be done with it. Maybe a carb and intake. Sell the 283 for what you can get, maybe more than you figure. And change the ignition over to HEI, very cheap and very simple. You'll need a SHORT water pump to use your pulley's and brackets. And keep your exhaust manifolds. If you decide to do it this way start another topic and ask what you'll need to pull this off. Someone may need a early 283, and you don't need the aggravation it seems you'll be getting into.

People posting here are trying to be helpful, and if we were all together we could solve the kids problems easy as 1,2,3 (and a fist fight or two!). Now that I've retired I hope o be able to help young guys get there start here around Buffalo, for the satisfaction of helping someone get started.

That said, Chevy Hype, Super Chevy and Car Craft are magazines 'poo07 MUST subscribe to!. And any of you who don't should too. There have been a LOT of articles on building up engines, and DYNO TESTING THEM to see what works and what doesn't. In the last 12 months they've done MANY articles on camshafts and camshaft theroy, after reading them all you'll be just as confused as I am, what's best?. 1911 and I could sit down of a couple of beers and 'noodle" back and forth THAT question!. After 3 or 4 beers we could SHREIK at one another "you don't know what the F your talking about!!!". Then the fists would fly!.

I'm only kidding, there many ways to build a motor, 1911 does it "by the book", I tend to do it quick and dirty (at times). Put his motor against my motor on a track and mine will do quite well. Drive it 100,000 miles (and don't keep a case of oil in the trunk!) and his will be MUCH, MUCH better than mine!. But I'm a "barnjobber" without a lot of money, and talent.1911 is EXPERIENCED, and has access to all the tools and machines to do it RIGHT!.

All taht said, for 'poo07 I'll stand by my first post, find a late '70's/early '80's car or truck with a rotten body and interior and a 350 with good compression, keep the engine/transmission, junk the car, change the cam and intake, and leave the block and heads alone. It's a way to START, and move on from there.

'poo07, I'll be at the Grove at Super Chevy, maybe we can sit down and discuss all this. Look for the street driven 1985 Camaro with EFI running the high 9's, he'll be pitted with the 1976 Kingswood Estate wagon also street driven running the mid 10's. Anyway, I'd like to be able to sit down with you and just BS. Like DQ said, take it a step at a time, and don't get in over your head to start.

 

[1911]

Fran, you gave good advice, sometimes I forget that things are cheaper for me. Something I would like to add is it seems to me odd that every engine I've seen sold at a junk yard had about 70k according to them, regardless of what a teardown reveals. I would feel more comfortable with the used car / good engine idea however that too requires you know signs of trouble to look for. The crate engine would be my choice if any of the above suggestions look good. As far as they go, a partial or long block from chevrolet is my preference, as jasper as well as every other non G.M. remanufacturer that we tried at the dealer proved problematic, price check and I think you'll find G.M. competitive. Definitely the fastest way to get the car on the road. I just hope that this aspiring gearhead doesn't take the easy road and turn into one of those guy's who claim to have built their car when in truth they just paid to have other people build it.

 

[bobs409]

I bought an engine from a local junkyard for my truck and had great luck!

I was just about ready to leave when I spotted a 1974 Impala just arrived so I asked if it had a good TH350 trans in it. (mine was starting to slip when doing the 2-3 shift) The owner of the yard told me to go test drive it so I took it for a drive up the road and back. Trans worked perfectly and it ran good, no smoke and quiet so I decided to take the engine and trans! For $275 dollars, I got both and never been happier.

That car showed 69,000 miles but I always suspected more. (maybe even 169,000?) I put almost 100,000 miles on it since then and only had to replace the timing chain/gears in all that time! (other than maintanence/tune up stuff)


Be warned though, it doesn't always work out so good. I had a local garage buy an engine from a junkyard and install it into a piece of crap Plymouth Arrow I used to drive around in during my teen years and it turned out to be a crop duster! Blue smoke from every red light! : What a piece!

Too much money spent with the install to return it so I drove it. (and attended every off road beer party I could find) Eventually the driver seat started falling through the floor and the wiring fried but I had some fun with it. Oops, im getting off track now.



So, I suggest similar to Fran. Get a running engine so you can use the car now, and rebuild the 283 you have either yourself when your ready or professionally. Just tuck it away for now.

 

[pappoo07]

The running junkyard engine sounds like a good way to go. I decided to call a local GM Parts center to get a price on a longblock. The price he gave me was $1311. Definitely competitive. HOWEVER (big however).. he said GM is starting to require core exchanges for their 350 longblocks! WTF!? Has anyne else heard of this happening?

 

[Southtowns27]

$1311 for a longblock? Ouch... Try calling around to local machine shops, you might be able to do better than that. The guy that builds all my race engines built me a complete 283 intake to pan for $1000. I didn't even have to give him a core. I literally handed him a grand and took home a monster of a 283. Actually, Fran may have heard of this place, B&L Racing Engines in Collins. (I live in Colden, NY, about 45 minutes from Fran). It definately wouldn't hurt to make a few more phone calls. I'm with everyone else on the "get it running and rebuild your engine later" theory. That way you'll be able to really take your time with it. I know how to, and have rebuilt engines before, but I've found that it's MUCH easier to have my builder do them for me since I have limited time. Definately keep us posted on your progress. Good luck!