409 for sale

[BelAir1637]

Hi Guys - long time reader of the forum, first time posting...... yada, yada.

I'm considering buying a disassembled 068 motor with 690 heads. I know this is the place to come for some advice... so if you'd be so kind. I know a little about 409's but not much about what can be fixed on engines or what to look for in areas where the castings typically fail. I'd like to tell you about it and see what you guys think.

The story goes the engine dropped a valve. One head has the valves out and some 'welding' has been done on the exhaust seat. The piston that came out of there is hammered but not broken and I consider toast. Other pistons are pitted on the face (detonation?) or have eyebrows (from valve float?) One rocker stud boss is cracked vertically and some have the pins out. The other head looks OK except one exhaust valve is recessed a noticable amount.

The block has been sleeved in one hole and decked. I think it's .060 over already because the pistons that supposedly came out are .060. The block does not appear to have freeze cracks like I've seen before.

The whole lot is block, crank (.040 under on mains or rods, I forget), rods, pistons (maybe toast), intake, complete heads, and aftermarket; distributor, edelbrock aircleaner and vc's, and new carter carbs.

The guy passed away and his wife wants to sell it but it's at the machine shop, and strewn about a shed where they recently moved all the stuff he was going to get to 'someday'. I get the impression the engine was run pretty hard in an old 30's coupe before he got it. But.. the date codes work for my '62.

Do you think it's worth the $3000 she's asking? Can the exhaust seat and rocker boss be fixed?

Thanks for any advice!!

 

[64ss409]

Do you think it's worth the $3000 she's asking?

Did you type an extra 0?:

Ron

 

[Ed51]

I don't have a 409 But it sounds like a lot of money for dubious parts.

 

[walkerheaders]

grab your wallet and head for the nearest exit

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Let's see what the parts are worth

I might disagree slightly

First of all, these QB 068 blocks (if that's what we have here) are getting pretty scarce. I saw one at Tony Shaffer's two weeks' ago (I believe it was the stroker project) and I asked Phil Reed if he could find me a better QB 068 block and even he mentioned they were hard to find (I bet he can get one if anyone can!).

If you really HAD TO HAVE a date coded period correct (not "numbers matching") block for your '62, this is the one to have, correct? It's the hiperf variety, which means 409 with 409 HP, not 380 HP. So if the block is salvageable, even with some work, it might have great value. Let's say since it's .060" over and sleeved that the value is $600.

I'll get a lot of teasing for that, but I understand the need to be somewhat "period correct". Most others disagree, and I understand that as well. I paid $300 for a 1962 QB 068 block and according to Tony Shaffer I will need to pony up around $1500 to make it useable. It's sitting down the basement waiting for me to get rich

Crank -- at .040" -- not sure if you can get bearings, so maybe zero?

Heads -- if matching pair, and salvageable and you wanted to pony up the machine shop bill, let's say $500 for the pair. You are gonna spend maybe $1000 to make them right, assuming it can be done...

If it's a 2x4 intake with both (incorrect) carbs, say another $500?

If you have the oil pan and related flat metal (timing cover, valve covers, etc.) these have some value. The rods have some value. Aftermarket stuff is aftermarket stuff, used.

So the total is around $1600 give or take a few hundred dollars. If you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE IT, think about making her an offer and see if the machine shop is reputable and will commit to a bid to restore the heads (I was assuming all new moving parts). You are taking a great risk that none of this will pay off (be useable) and you will be out a chunk of change, but have some nice room decorations to place about your office and workroom. On the other hand, you have a chance to save a QB block from the past

I have a similar situation with a local fellow and a 1963 QB block that has its original bore. Has the pistons, the rods, the crank, wrong intake, only one head (and its a 333 truck head). He wants $1800 for the lot. I'm less than interested, but will work with him on the price. The fact that it hasn't been bored and it's a QB block drives my interest...

So see if they will take an offer, if you are still interested in taking the risk. I suspect they could put a lousy add up on Ebay and get what they are asking, but someone will get surprised Hope it's not one of us!

OK, so there's the other side of it, in my humble opinion. It's a bit of cash and a lot of risk, but there might be some personal reward in it for you. Good luck!

TomK

 

[BelAir1637]

Tom:

Thanks for the flip-side. Your's is the way I'm leaning. My bubbletop body was built 3rd week of March and the block is A2262. Heads are A562 and L2662(day after xmas). I guess I'm asking if the castings are salvageable at all the way I described but I know it's hard to tell without actually seeing... The block I think is what I'd really like to have - the rest I can do better. I figure $2000 for the lot but the condition is risky.

How can you tell if it's a QA or QB block except by the stamping? This one is decked and stamp is gone...

 

[Loafer409]

I hope she gave you a peck on the cheek when he told you the price, cause she's sure trying to screw ya...jmo...Sounds like that thing has been run hard and put away wet many times...I'd keep looking...09

 

[jim_ss409]

The QA and QB blocks are identical. It might be worthwhile checking with a good engine builder in your area to see what they say about repairing those heads. There is also the possibility there are other things wrong that aren't visibible. These 409s are going for alot of money but $3,000 seems high for an engine with so many problems. I can't see many people lineing up to get this engine. The only one that would really want it badly is somone looking for matching numbers. So I would think she would be happy to find an interested buyer.

 

[wrench]

409

If yer gonna drop 3K for an incomplete builder upper, then consider my QA basket case for 4.5K. Pretty dang near complete.
Not much missing. Still expensive to build, but you won't be hopping all over looking for much, or cruising ebay and paying auction dollars.

 

[threeimpalas]

What would a running and otherwise complete (minus original carbs) 425hp engine be worth? I may have found one that's in an old tractor of all things! Was supposedly used as a show and pulling tractor built in '66. Haven't yet confirmed casting and deck codes, however.

 

[BelAir1637]

Wrench:

What's the date code on that QA motor?

Are you the guy in BC?

 

[BelAir1637]

Well... I had a respectable builder look at the heads and tell me he can fix the heads for $750. Includes screw in rocker studs with guide plates, new springs, 2 new valves, valve guides, and hardened exhaust seats and well as repairing the seat area. 'Better than new' he says.... I am thinking of offering $2000. I wouldn't be so interested but the block is right for my car (I think... 6 wks prior to body?).

 

[SS425HP]

Does this guy know 409 stuff??????????????? Be VERY CAREFUL. 2 things.
1. I have been told from day one, no valve seat inserts in 409 heads. You will hit water. Casting is too thin. I have heard in the last year or so that there is a thinner seat available that MIGHT work. Key word is MIGHT.
2. Guide plates. I have also been told, and it makes sense, You can't use guide plates on 409 heads. The head has a perfect guide in it, and another can bind. To use a guide plate, you have to open up the slots the factory made to guide the push rods. 2 guides can bind.
Be careful.

Fred

 

[jim_ss409]

I think that the casting dates would be in the ballpark alright. And a 62 block that matches the build date of your car would be hard to find so you might not want to let it get away if you could get it for $2,000.

 

[BelAir1637]

SS425HP: Thanks for the advice. I had heard 409's don't take exhaust seats also... I didn't realize about the guide plates. I think I'd not want to grind the holes bigger - you can always make the hole bigger, takes lots of $ to make it smaller.

Anyone interested in Edelbrock valve covers and matching air cleaner?

 

[Tony Shaffer]

Exhaust Seats in 409's

Hey Guys,
The mith that exists that you can't put exhaust seats in w-series engines is just that! We have installed without blowing the quantitys out of proportion, at the very least 40 sets of heads! The exhaust seats are absolutely no problem, you just have to know what you are doing. Knock on wood, 0 failures. There certaily is limited material in the W-series engines cylinder heads in the valve seat area so you must be cautious. Anybody that wants exhaust seats installed correctly, just send them babies to us and we will do the job without failure. The intake side of the heads is more of a problem than the exhaust. You just about can't put in an intake seat, especially if it needs to be bigger than the valve. I just wanted to clarify this issure. The 474 that we just finished that made 510 HP had hardened exhaust seats installed.
Thanks
Tony Shaffer

 

[SS425HP]

Hardened valve seats

Tony, what is the advantage to using them in a seldom run motor. I mean, maybe 2000 miles a year. Also, what is the advantage, if any, in using them in a race motor. Not criticizing, just asking for my own info.

Fred

 

[Tony Shaffer]

When you need hardened exh. seats in 09

Hey Fred,
Most likely if you just take very short trips at a time there will be limited wear. Also there are some additives that might help some in cases where there is very limited driving. In a race engine there is no need to put seats in them. Number one most likely you will be using some kind of fuel that has lead in it and even if you didn't the short bursts in drag racing wouldn't hurt anything. The problem is when the valve seats get hot and sustain heat for a very long time. That is when you run into trouble. If you were driving one in the heat of the summer say from KC to LA, by the time you arrived in LA your exhaust seats would most likely be beat into the head a considerable distance. One way to tell if your exhaust seats are going away without taking an engine apart is if you have a solid lifter cam and the exhaust lash keeps tightening up, then you know the valves are going up into the heads. It takes a little more time to notice it with a hydraulic cam because the lifter will just absorb the tightening up process until it runs out of travel inside. Talk to you guys later.
Tony

 

[dq409]

Any of you that are going to drive any long distances with the old seats can just add a small mix of Avgas. It is high in lead content so a little goes a long way.
Or get some of that nasty real lead at the swap meets,,,,(wear gloves ,,don`t breath)
Fred didn`t you say you have your wings???

 

[Bungy]

I found that out the hard way. In high school I had a Monza wagon that I put a 350 in. Had the old "camel back" heads (pre unleaded) I drove from Minnesota to Florida and back turning high RPMs. Started burning water leaving a cloud of white smoke behind me every where I went. I thought I blew a head gasket so I pulled the heads only to find the exhaust valve went so far into the head it broke into the water jacket. So the car was retired, undefeated I might ad.