409 specs

[nomadtrans]

I bought a brand new in the crate, wrapped in plastic 409 engine from a former GM dealer. I was told it was a 1965 340HP replacement engine. When I received it I find it is a truck engine, Block casting No. 3857 656 and deck stamp TO526XXG. Is it possible to increase the compression to 10 or 11 to 1 and will an aluminum single or dual 4 intake fit. I'd like to get it up somewhere to the 380 to 409 HP range.
Thanks.

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

crate engine

Congrats on your purchase of the crate motor (engine)!

I suspect the heads are cast as "333", and those heads only accept the lower performance cast iron intakes from GM. You can go "aftermarket" and procure some interesting intakes that offer multiple carbs. They look great!

The heads as stock items don't support tons of performance, but they can be "opened up" and bigger valves inserted for more performance. I think you can get as much as 400 horses out of those heads. Or you can pop high perf heads on top, but then you have additional costs (and probably cast pistons down low).

It really depends on what you want to do, and how much you want to spend. The engine as it exists does put out a lot of torque and a reasonable amount of horsepower, so it's up to you to decide what you want in terms of performance.

Let us know what your intentions are and someone can help guide you in terms of choices and options. You have a great start!

regards,
TomK

 

[MK IISS]

Tom: I believe you forgot about the '59-'61 hi-perf. solid lifter 348s which had small port aluminum single 4-bbl. intakes which should fit nomadtrans's heads.

 

[SS425HP]

New engine

Nomadtrans, there are several members in your area that should be able to help you. OldSkyDog is in the Phoenix area. Might not be there at the moment, but he will be back. He seems to know what he is talking about, so should be of some help. The heads are going to be the key. Head numbers are under the valve covers. Give us those numbers and we can tell you more about your possibilities.

 

[nomadtrans]

Thanks everyone. I'll get the no's off of the heads when I get it out of the crate tomorrow. It's going into a 62 bubbletop so I would like to make it as authentic as possible.

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Good call

Richard adds: "Tom: I believe you forgot about the '59-'61 hi-perf. solid lifter 348s which had small port aluminum single 4-bbl. intakes which should fit nomadtrans's heads."

Yeah, I was thinking that as I was typing the response, but have you seen what these older aluminum high perf intakes go for on Ebay ? I was thinking they should be reserved for older 348 replicas, or the early 409 builds (which is probably why they are so high?).

Didn't know the owner was thinking "62 Belair sport coupe". To be "correct" there he'll need to have the big heads and one of the the more modern aluminum intakes.

Which reminds me to ask "What kind of shape is your 62 BA in, and can we see some pictures of the "crate" engine and the car?

Thanks!
TomK

 

[nomadtrans]

Thanks Tom and Fred. The no.s on the LH head is 3819333 with some other nos. GM-3, CFD, and 31. I took a bunch of pictures and will download them this weekend. The bubbletop needs a total restoration. Been sitting for 22 years with rust in the quarters and trunk floor. A 283, PG car. With the info you've given me, here is what I'm thinking. Since the engine is not really correct for the 62 I plan to make it a 380HP replica using an aluminum 4bl intake from a 348, some higher compression pistons, a cam etc. 4 spd and I also have a rebuilt 3:08 posi for it. Any help or advice is appreciated.
Ken

 

[nomadtrans]

Also, thanks Richard.

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Ken, Glad you got a good motor to start with. The new pistons, cam, etc. will make you a strong motor. The intake manifold Richard and TomK were talking about ( 348 Aluminum ) is horribly expensive. You could buy a new Offy 2X4 intake with two new carbs for what it would cost to buy the aforementioned intake. Maybe something to think about. Whatever you choose, good luck.

 

[mac1]

I just did the same swap on my 62 Impala. I took out a 327 and installed a 65 truck block with 333 heads. I also wanted a 380 hp clone. I had the block bored 30 over and installed Ross 10.5 to 1 forged pistons. The heads were ported and polished and we installed 206/172 valves. I couldn't find a 348 aluminum single intake, (are there any left)?, so I found a 463 380 hp aluminum intake on ebay, for a couple of hundred dollars. I had the heads ported out some to match up better with the large intake runners. With the relief in the 333 heads and the truck block, I ended up with 9.5 to 1 compression. This worked out great for me because I can only get 91 octane here in Cal. I have no detonation problems with this compression. I'm using an MSD ready to run distributor and an Edelbrock 650 cfm thunder series carb. The engine has never been dyno'd but we think I have around 375 hp. Here's some pics of the engine. Best of luck on your build. Mac

http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1692988

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

update

Ken, you still have the basics for a very strong build. Stay open with regard to your options, and keep us posted as you progress.

Mac, that '62 "clone" (if I may refer to it as such) looks great! Nice work on the details including the fitting up of the 380 horse intake. I trust it runs well and you're having a great time with the top down?

Cheers,
TomK

 

[wrench]

Here's some pics of the engine.

EXCELLENT! Great details in all your photos! Thanks! Can I 'rob' them for future reference material?

One question. The fittings at the carb inlet...is that factory?

Beautiful car!

 

[impalamike.com]

Please post a picture of the 409 crate motor. Fantastic looking 409/380!

 

[mac1]

EXCELLENT! Great details in all your photos! Thanks! Can I 'rob' them for future reference material?

One question. The fittings at the carb inlet...is that factory?

Beautiful car!

Thanks TomK and Wrench, the pictures will be there if you need them for reference. The carb fittings are not factory correct. I got them from Ace hardware. The Edelbrock inlet nipple is 3/8" OD. I cut the flared tip off and used a 3/8" x 5/16" compression elbow, but had to piece meal it together using adapter fittings. I used 5/16 brake line with brake fittings for the fuel line using a spring bender for the angles. The fuel filter was from Showcars. The dual snorkel air cleaner hides it all pretty well. Glad I can help you with your build! Don't forget to post some progress pictures. Mac

 

[wrench]

Thanks TomK and Wrench, the pictures will be there if you need them for reference. The carb fittings are not factory correct. I got them from Ace hardware. The Edelbrock inlet nipple is 3/8" OD. I cut the flared tip off and used a 3/8" x 5/16" compression elbow, but had to piece meal it together using adapter fittings. I used 5/16 brake line with brake fittings for the fuel line using a spring bender for the angles. The fuel filter was from Showcars. The dual snorkel air cleaner hides it all pretty well. Glad I can help you with your build! Don't forget to post some progress pictures. Mac

I was wondering about that fitting setup. Compression fitting on a fuel line? Hmmmm...... Anyway, I noticed the tubing runs right above the heat riser port area. Do you experience any vapor locks?

I found another fuel filter housing identical to yours excepte the thumbwheel is different. It's a factory one with 1/8" threaded fittings. I'm almost sure it came from a 6 cylinder motor since everything in those boxes came from one car.

My car is years from restoration, but I do plan on doing up a pictorial history like Grimmy's 57 Rustbucket website.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[mac1]

I never gave much thought to the heat riser and fuel line area. That's something I might have to address. It's been ok so far but might be a problem on a hot day. I used a compression fitting on the carb inlet because I couldn't find any other way to attach it. Does Edelbrock make a flare screw in adapter??
My fuel filter also has 1/8"fip threads. Mac

 

[wrench]

I never gave much thought to the heat riser and fuel line area. That's something I might have to address. It's been ok so far but might be a problem on a hot day. I used a compression fitting on the carb inlet because I couldn't find any other way to attach it. Does Edelbrock make a flare screw in adapter??

I had a Z-28 302 in my old 56 BelAir 2 door hardtop. I didn't get the right fuel line parts because it was a weekend, we were in a hurry to get to the track, etc. I used a compression fitting on the carb inlets. It failed and I nearly lost that car and engine. I suspect the engines vibrations had a lot to do with it (it was a bit radical running), or maybe I was a bit overzealous tightening it, but it changed my ideas about fuel lines! Flare fittings now for me for sure. I'd hate to see that beauty of yours spring a leak.

As for suppliers.....I don't know what the aftermarket has available. I'd custom bend/flare one and run it over the upper part by the choke housing keeping that factory appearance.