61 Impala Sport Coupe

[real61ss]

RPO 580, 360 hp 409 suffix Q was added on 10-13-60.
The records show production of all W engines for 1961 ran from June of 1960 through 25 July, 1961.

Cecil,
I beleive that would have been the dates that the 348 motors were available. I don't think the 623 motor was still available in July of '61. I wonder why the Q suffix was added in Oct? The motor wasn't available until about 4 months later. The earliest block casting date that I have seen was Nov. 7th, 1960 (I'm going on memory but I think that's right) and the last one that I've seen is April 27, '61. (That's what mine is)
I have a copy of a letter from the Chevrolet Motor Division dated Feb. 14, '61 addressed to "All Chevrolet Dealers" advising of the availablity of the new motor. The NHRA Nationals started on Feb. 17th and the Daytona 500 was Feb. 26th. This would have been just prior to the time of these races and to my knowledge these races were the first use of the new motor. I beleive that at some point in the spring of '61 the original style 409 was discontinued, that's the date I'd like to find.

62impala409
for sure the motors were sold over the parts counter, most likely more were sold over the counter or given to race teams than were installed in cars at the factory. The letter that I have states that the motor is available as part # 3795507 (the number is kinda hard to read but I'm pretty sure that is what it says) or as RPO 580. The letter goes on to say that even though the motor will carry a premium price, serious back orders are expected and orders will be accepted only on a limited basis.

 

[oldskydog]

Cecil,
I beleive that would have been the dates that the 348 motors were available. I don't think the 623 motor was still available in July of '61. I wonder why the Q suffix was added in Oct? The motor wasn't available until about 4 months later. The earliest block casting date that I have seen was Nov. 7th, 1960 (I'm going on memory but I think that's right) and the last one that I've seen is April 27, '61. (That's what mine is)
I have a copy of a letter from the Chevrolet Motor Division dated Feb. 14, '61 addressed to "All Chevrolet Dealers" advising of the availablity of the new motor. The NHRA Nationals started on Feb. 17th and the Daytona 500 was Feb. 26th. This would have been just prior to the time of these races and to my knowledge these races were the first use of the new motor. I beleive that at some point in the spring of '61 the original style 409 was discontinued, that's the date I'd like to find.

62impala409
for sure the motors were sold over the parts counter, most likely more were sold over the counter or given to race teams than were installed in cars at the factory. The letter that I have states that the motor is available as part # 3795507 (the number is kinda hard to read but I'm pretty sure that is what it says) or as RPO 580. The letter goes on to say that even though the motor will carry a premium price, serious back orders are expected and orders will be accepted only on a limited basis.

Tommy,
The first 409 built in Los Angeles was the first week in January.
The engine part number was 3795507 as you noted, and it and the RPO 580 "Q" suffix code were added to the "Engine Identification Information, issued 10-13-60". That was when they officially put the information in the system , not necessarily when production started, but the early November block is probably about right. Tonawanda Product Engineering Dept. revised it's listing on 10-28-60 which would be about right for the first week of January 61 production. My block was cast Nov 15 and the first 409 car out of LOS had a block cast Nov 16, 1960 so it was probably assembled sometime in Dec.
The " Q" suffix applied to the single 4 barrel 409 in whatever part number, casting number was current at the time. I believe I saw a 623 with a May date, but the 068 block came out in June and would probably be used concurrently with any left over stock of 623's until they were exhausted as the current casting for the Q or QA. The last two months of production would most likely be 068 castings not 623.

 

[real61ss]

Cecil
I don't dissagree with anything you are saying. according to the letter that I referenced the motor was made available to the public in Feb of '61. All of this could very well be correct, those early cars like the one you mentioned coming out of LA in Jan could have gone to racers or used as test cars for magazines etc. Actually, I beleive the first 409 car may have been a Super Sport built in December but it wasn't sold to the public. The NASCAR guys had to have had the cars and the motors in hand over the winter to get ready for Daytona.
It is interesting that the letter concerning the availablity of the motor and the letter announcing the new Super Sport option are dated with-in a week or so of each other.
I'm just rambling, I don't know the answers but it's interesting to talk about. What are your thoughts about the date that I'm looking for? For years we have heard that the '61 409 was made available then discontinued until corrections could be made, if that is true then there had to be a time when the 409 was not available. That's the time frame that I'm trying to nail down.

 

[oldskydog]

Tommy,
I hadn't heard or read anything about the 409 not being available for awhile. Was it mentioned in an article or something? That might explain the low number of production for an introductory year. I don't think they would have started production that early if they intended to limit it.
I wish I could find the Parts Lists. It's strange that they list two different part numbers for the RPO 58 0 production, but in the year end summary of engine production they only show the one part number.

 

[real61ss]

Well, I have always heard that production was stopped due to the problems that they were having with the new motor. That's why there were only 142 cars built. I don't know if this is true, that's what I'm trying to find out. If the availiblity of the motor was stopped and a date could be found documenting when it was stopped then that would be the info I'm looking for. And, this info would just add some to the story of the '61 409.

 

[Phil Reed]

I love this thread!!!!!

 

[real61ss]

"I hadn't heard or read anything about the 409 not being available for awhile"

I love it too but I gotta do some research.....I know I didn't dream this stuff about the motor being discontinued.....be back later

 

[bjburnout]

agreed Phil.....
It's like being back at school, but this time I'm paying attention.....

thanx Tommy, Cecil and everyone for the great info.....


bj

 

[real61ss]

In the past week or so I’ve contacted several very knowledgeable people concerning the availability of the ’61 409. All agree on the time frame that the motor became available to both the racers and the public. (Racers most likely got the motors in late December of 1960 or January of 1961, this allowed them to prepare cars for NHRA & NASCAR events held in Feb. of ‘61) The general public was advised of the motor in February of ’61.
The date that no one can nail down is when the motors became unavailable. Everyone that I spoke with agrees that shortly after the announcement advising of its availability, the motor was no longer available, thus the low production figure of 142.
Years ago I visited with Fran Prev in his home in N.Y. and saw his records, the problem was or is, at the time I did not own one of these motors so I did not look as closely at his information as I should have, however, he, Richard Martin and Fred Totten used to meet up in Fl and Richard remembers that Fran spoke of core shift problems with the motors and the fact that the ratio of usable blocks to the number of blocks that had to be scrapped reached the point that the Tonawanda engine plant made the decision to put the motor on “production hold” until the problem was corrected. I have tried for a long time to find some kind of documentation regarding the date the motor was put on this production hold, I have never been successful in finding this although I’m still looking. After putting much thought and effort into this I believe there may never have been such a date officially issued by Chevrolet. This engine was produced for racing purposes and they were winning races, especially the drag races and to have issued any statement to the effect that the motor was on production hold or wasn’t available could have caused NASCAR or NHRA to ban the use of the motor since they were required to be available to the public. I believe this is the reason that so far no documentation has surfaced. Still look'n

 

[Don Jacks]

Thank you for all your hard work Tommy.Your theory makes perfect sense to me reguarding the various santioning bodies.At that time "what wins on sunday,sells on monday'was a fact of life!

 

[Nikke]

 

[david montanbeau]

Bump. Any updates?