A few q's RE: 348 3X2 set up

[Gofish]

Here are some pics, #1 rear, #2 ctr, #3front. Different lighting, #4 rear, #5front, #6 ctr. #7 is Show Cars chrome timing cover. First off, I had to cut out lip at bottom of seal opening - it was tapered, and tapered the oil seal as I pressed it in. It ruined the seal; Secondly, when I set the crank TDC, compression #1 cyl, with my TDC adapter, and indicator, #8 pic, the timing tab was off 4 degees. The true engine TDC is 4 deg ATDC on the tab. BTW, the tool is made from a plug, with the porcelain knocked out and reamed for a 3/8 drill bushing. I still need to let Show Cars know, and see if they will give me a new seal, too.

thanks for the pics. From what I see the outer two carbs will need a check ball in the round hole of the accelerator pump well, but the center one does not have the ‘hole’ of the others and will not. Does that jive with you?

good job on going with the leather.

John

 

[reastman]

Maybe I missed it, but are you getting parts according to your tag numbers???

Yes, 7013015, 7013017 [ends], 7013020 center.

 

[reastman]

Jon will only sell you stock stuff and he won’t sell you anything you don’t need. He will want the original tag numbers or he won’t sell you anything.

I saw that on his site, and he's only available by phone on Mon and Tues.

 

[La Hot Rods]

He's an older gentleman and makes the kit to order.

 

[reastman]

I think I may know where this car is located. It was in Toledo and a friend of mine bought it from him around 2000 2001 it is a black car red interior SS 350 HP 4sp when he got the car someone had put in different interior pieces some were still red some aqua he bought it with a 283 in it and the 348 was in pieces. we put the 348 back together and it ran fine but was tired. He had the car verified by Verne Franze. He sold the car to another friend of ours before his passing in 2020. I wish I could of bought the car but didn't know he was selling. The car is now in Michigan in storage. I know its the same car.

I bought it in June of '68 from a co-worker named Jim Valentine, who was second owner. I forget the name of the original owner. As Jim told me, the 1st owner went into Hopkins Chevy-Olds [located on St Rt 69, and now called Route 235, south of New Carlisle, Ohio in Park Lane. It is north of Dayton, Ohio] in early spring of '61 and ordered a "full-size Chevy, with a manual tranny, and the highest HP V8 Chevy offered". He wanted to tow a boat back and forth to Indian Lake. The car had about 65k on it when I bought it. It originally had a 3.70 posi track, which I had to replace after I blew the carrier bearing and u-joints All I could afford at that time was a 3:36 [?] non-posi. I also side-swiped a telephone pole in the winter of '68/'69. The right rear quarter was new from Hopkins, but the door and front fender I bought from a salvage yard. I think I got them from the same donor car, and that they were white or light-colored, as I best recall. I replaced the stock wheels and covers with Rocket mags I got from Paul Anthony Tires in Dayton [$35 each]. In late '69, I sold the car to a fellow my sister worked with, as I used to take her home after 2nd shift at Leland Airborne in Vandalia Ohio. It was tired, and I sold it for $675. I had blown a piston on the drivers bank at one time, and it never had good compression on that cylinder [I did not know much about Honing then]. It was nickel-diming me, and I sold it with about 90K+ on it.
At one time, I tried to find where it went, but no luck.
Who is Verne Franze?. I would really like to see it again, if you could help me. It was my first serious car, and not the six cyl and three on the tree that my Dad wanted me to find. When I first brought it home, he saw the Sun tach, then the Hurst Competition Plus shifter, and when I popped the hood, he saw the chrome valve covers and chrome pots on the carbs. He said."J.C.", and shook his head and walked away. My Mom borrowed it once, and she was always in a hurry. She had a year old '67 Bel Air, 3 spd on tree, and 283. It was always mash the petal down, clutch, shift and repeat. She did that in my '61, and lit the tires. She was visibly shaken when she brought it back. I could smell rubber in the cabin. I really would like to see it again and take some photos.
Dick Eastman

 

[reastman]

He's an older gentleman and makes the kit to order.

Good to know, thanks

 

[reastman]

thanks for the pics. From what I see the outer two carbs will need a check ball in the round hole of the accelerator pump well, but the center one does not have the ‘hole’ of the others and will not. Does that jive with you?

good job on going with the leather.

John

The holes in the bottom of the well and bowl do not join. There is a boss cast into the outside of the bottom of bowl that would have been drilled to join the two holes, and then plugged. It has not. The two holes in the end carbs are "blind holes". and are apparently cast that way for other applications. Thanks.
Dick

 

[blkblk63ss]

The holes in the bottom of the well and bowl do not join. There is a boss cast into the outside of the bottom of bowl that would have been drilled to join the two holes, and then plugged. It has not. The two holes in the end carbs are "blind holes". and are apparently cast that way for other applications. Thanks.
Dick

So if the correct pump is installed, how does fuel get sprayed since you say there are bling holes in well??? Are you positive that carb is correct . Any numbers on carb itself, not the tags.

 

[reastman]

So if the correct pump is installed, how does fuel get sprayed since you say there are bling holes in well??? Are you positive that carb is correct . Any numbers on carb itself, not the tags.

In all three pump wells, there is a somewhat horizontal hole that leads to the metering well [has the spring/ball in it]. It is the other hole in the pump well that is blind and that also does not join with the bowl hole [ adjacent to the pump well]. The primary question is how is the pump well replenished with fuel? Does it spill over from the bowl into the well via the slot? Would that mean the plunger cup seal has to retract above the well slot; if not, how would the fuel get past the cup seal? Why do the end carbs give a good "squirt", and the center just dribble fuel down the side of the cluster? That's also why I think the pump rod adjustment is critical. I will find out today if I can find three leather pump rods before I button it up.
Yes the carb nos are correct. I bought them through Curt Harvey of CH Enterprises. At that time 1995, he was building409's with 454 cranks [about 470 CI], and was very knowledgeable on the W engines - don't know if he's still around.
Dick

 

[blkblk63ss]

What's different on end carbs that squirt and center don't . There has to be a escape passage on the squirter carbs .

 

[blkblk63ss]

If I am understanding right there is a slot on side of pump well gas can get in well when pump is in top position (throttle closed). So you are saying there is no escape from well to squirt??

 

[La Hot Rods]

The well has a passage to the booster cluster, it doesn't have a passage to the float bowl.
The accelerator pump has check ball in the bottom center of it that controls the fuel to the pump well.

 

[blkblk63ss]

The well has a passage to the booster cluster, it doesn't have a passage to the float bowl.
The accelerator pump has check ball in the bottom center of it that controls the fuel to the pump well.

Ok,that makes sense now for pump shot.

 

[reastman]

The well has a passage to the booster cluster, it doesn't have a passage to the float bowl.
The accelerator pump has check ball in the bottom center of it that controls the fuel to the pump well.

See the pics - the end carbs have provision for bowl to well, but were never drilled. I just spent about an hour with Ron from Daytona Parts and this was one of 3 ways fuel enters the well and utilizes a one-way check ball.

 

[reastman]

I finally found out how the fuel enters the pump well. According to Ron at Daytona parts, fuel enters the well using three different methods: the first is the one above: fuel enters well from bowl via hole in bottom of bowl connected to hole in bottom of well. These holes join each other by a cross-drilled hole in casting boss under this area, then hole is plugged part way to keep fuel in the passage. As plunger is pulled up the fuel is drawn one way only from bowl into well. As plunger is pushed down, the check ball in this passage pushes shut and fuel is then forced into metering well [3/16 steel bearing/copper spring/"T" spring guide hole] and exits into venturi via the cluster as the "squirt". The second method is similar, only the plunger body is used in conjunction with a hole and a check ball. Plunger up fuel enters top of plunger, passes through the body into well. As plunger goes down the pump pressure pushes the check ball closed and fuel is pushed into metering well as above. Ron said this method required a die-cast plunger body and used 12 parts to make. The third method is what is now commonly used: body injection-molded, and uses 6 parts to mfr. The fuel spills into pump well above the plunger via the slot. As the plunger is pulled up. the cup seal moves downward about .010" and exposes the four [or 3 or 2] molded slots in the pump body and enters the well through those slots. As the plunger goes back down, the seal moves up to seal off the slots and the fuel exits the well under pump pressure through the metering well.
I did not realize that the cup seal moved that way. Perhaps the reason my center is carb not squirting, as I did not see any discernable movement on the seal. I.E., If the seal is stuck in the top position, it may give one good squirt, and the well has to wait to replenish. My end carbs had a little play and they were giving a good squirt every time
Daytona Parts will sell plunger assemblies complete for 10 each, and the seals are a little harder than competitors and won't "curl up" and tear the seal. He said that is exactly what happened to mine. I thought that NAPA Echlin was made by Standard Motor Products, but SMP has Walker make their kits. I told Ron that my ctr carb kit has a plunger oal of about 1/16" longer than the end carbs, and that, of the four plunger springs I have, three are 2.72" long, and fourth is 2.58". He said all 3 plungers and springs should be same. He also said their kits are from the largest collection of factory carb drawings/specs in the world. I believe he said their kits go back to 1924. Also check out their Daytona needle/seat part. The description is on their web site. They are 8 each. The kit is a better deal, p/n 366T. The "T" stands for Tri-Power and is specific to rebuilding the three original GM part numbers [rear - 7013015, front - 7013017, center - 7013020 ]. Kit was 90.
I think this will finally fix my problem. To listen to Ron speak was a real informative session.

Dick

 

[La Hot Rods]

Two factory and one aftermarket.

 

[reastman]

Two factory and one aftermarket.

That went over my head.....

 

[blkblk63ss]

That went over my head.....

Report back if you would on the fix.

 

[427John]

Info first: Three original Rochester 2GC [ the stamped aluminum triangular tags - center carb 7013020; rear 7013017; front 7013015 ]. I bought three rebuild kits from NAPA made by Echlin' p/n 2-5146C

, and two p/n 2-5147 [secondary end carbs]. I verified these nos. through Echlin before I ordered from NAPA. When I originally built this engine in '95, I rebuilt the carbs then, but I believe the kits were through Big A, and don't remember who made the kits. The reason for going through them a second time was that after my run stand was completed, I ran fuel through them [4psi electric pump] and I was not getting that initial spray from the cluster ass'y. The molded rubber cups on the plunger assemblies had all shrunk and would not seal the pump wells. I installed the new kits, the primary difference being that the new pump plungers had a circular spring under the cup seal lip to put mor tension against the pump well walls. That circular spring, I believe, added too much tension, causing all three cup seals to develop a tear in the side [I lightly oiled the cup seals and pump wells first]. I called Echlin and they gave me part nos. for just the pump plunger/cup seal assembly alone [center p/n 2-4037, end carbs p/n 2-4036]. They told me that the ctr carb had a different length. I can't verify that yet, as only the ctr plunger came in, the two end plungers are coming from a different warehouse next week. The ctr plunger has no circular spring under the cup seal lip, unlike the kits I bought.
I have also checked/reset the float level, float drop, and pump rod adjustment. The main jets are #60 in ctr carb and #58 in end carbs.
I was searching some posts here and recall reading that the plunger springs were shortened. Were they the springs retained on the plunger itself, or the springs that sit in the pump well? How much were they cut and which ones?
I am using a Mallory dual point distributor with no vacuum advance on it. What should the timing with this be?
The base plate for the ctr carb has a 3/8-18 NPT thread. What was this for on the original cars?
I eliminated the road draft tube and set it up for a pcv and ran it to the ctr carb base. From what I have read here, some have plugged the ctr carb base hole [which I have done]. I still have a pcv in the road draft hole in the intake manifold. Should I run it where it does not affect the fuel mixture?
I have enclosed some pics.
Thanks,
Dick​

I just finished troubleshooting a very weak accelerator pump shot and found my issue to be the dogleg link between the throttle lever and rocker arm.I don't know if it got stepped on or someone deliberately straightened it some but it made it too long resulting in not allowing the plunger to retract fully and limited the amount of shot.With the custom links you have you may want to verify the amount of travel you have.

 

[reastman]

I just finished troubleshooting a very weak accelerator pump shot and found my issue to be the dogleg link between the throttle lever and rocker arm.I don't know if it got stepped on or someone deliberately straightened it some but it made it too long resulting in not allowing the plunger to retract fully and limited the amount of shot.With the custom links you have you may want to verify the amount of travel you have.

Thanks.
I verified pump rod length by making adjustable ones first, in conjunction with the rod angle. I then made a one- piece rod.