Aluminum Pontiac project
- Thread starter brisbane47
- Start date
Fran Preve
Banned
Bris: the people have spoken, from what I gather your information will lead to a discussion about what Pontica was up to and maybe a couple could add to YOUR knowledge, and of course yours to theirs. Keep adding to the post but have patience and keep an open mind. Let's move on now, this could get interesting.
brisbane47
Well Known Member
One more time to try the scanned photographs. Grrrrr. TS
brisbane47
Well Known Member
It worked!!! I hope interested people like the finished product. Frannie, explain to me about "speeds and feeds" again. (KIDDING!!) Now that I have found the secret to scanning I will try to get the sequence put in a gallery. See Ya, TS ( PS, 1911; I owe you one, and I know where you live!! Maybe the photographs from Berlin Race Track should be posted!!! You knew better. )
brisbane47
Well Known Member
Wrench, feel free to use any photographs that I post that might be of interest. TS
Fran Preve
Banned
Bris: speeds and feeds.............no, I won't go there. Curiously, last night I read in an article about Z-11's/mystery motors, a one sentence mention of a PONTIAC aluminum block motor that was looked into in the 1963 time frame. This is the FIRST time I ever read about a PONTIAC (as opposed to a Mickey Thompson) aluminum engine or parts of an engine.
Let me add something to the Mickey Thompson/Pontiac connection. Until 1963 Mickey Thompson was directly connected to Pontiac. This began in 1959 when Thompson built his 406 mph Bonneville streamliner. The car was powered by Pontiac engines, and subsequent to that he built MANY dragsters and drag cars as well as Bonneville cars which set MANY national and international speed records, all of which caught the attention of people at Pontiac. 1961 and 1962 were the main years, but you can tell from his M/T catalogs that he was providing many unique parts specifically for Pontiac's. I think it's a reasonable conclusion that anything Thompson did was known to Pontiac, and visa versa. I believe that any aluminum Pontiac blocks had a "Thompson" connection.
After the ban on racing by GM in January of 1963 this connection was broken and Ford went after Thompson as a valued resource and provided him with Fordmotors for his streamliner and (I believe) beginning in 1964 Thompson began racing Ford products, as did MANY racers who were cut off by GM and wooed by both Ford and Chrysler......................but that's another story.
Let me add something to the Mickey Thompson/Pontiac connection. Until 1963 Mickey Thompson was directly connected to Pontiac. This began in 1959 when Thompson built his 406 mph Bonneville streamliner. The car was powered by Pontiac engines, and subsequent to that he built MANY dragsters and drag cars as well as Bonneville cars which set MANY national and international speed records, all of which caught the attention of people at Pontiac. 1961 and 1962 were the main years, but you can tell from his M/T catalogs that he was providing many unique parts specifically for Pontiac's. I think it's a reasonable conclusion that anything Thompson did was known to Pontiac, and visa versa. I believe that any aluminum Pontiac blocks had a "Thompson" connection.
After the ban on racing by GM in January of 1963 this connection was broken and Ford went after Thompson as a valued resource and provided him with Fordmotors for his streamliner and (I believe) beginning in 1964 Thompson began racing Ford products, as did MANY racers who were cut off by GM and wooed by both Ford and Chrysler......................but that's another story.
brisbane47
Well Known Member
Fran, these blocks came along long after the early sixties PMD/MT association. As a matter of fact, they were cast from the same imbedded aluminum as the CanAm MKIV. They were to have no liners and would have the same plated piston the MKIV had. I had no way to obtain the pistons, so I installed thin wall liners in the bores. They also had the Pontiac 400 main bearing bore size. I intended to make 7075 main caps for them until I found four sets of Pontiac four bolt 400 caps. I had to make all the jigs and fixtures for these things and use the machinery I had at the time to do the job. Quite a project! For a long time I had an 18 foot scroll blueprint on the wall of the machine shop. These came directly from PMD engineering. See Ya, TS
Fran Preve
Banned
I'm not sure about the 494 Cam Am blocks but the ZL-1 mark IV blocks had liners.
Was this block a 301"?. It seems to me Trans Am had a 305 engine size limit.
Was this block a 301"?. It seems to me Trans Am had a 305 engine size limit.
brisbane47
Well Known Member
1911, That is not being evil, I am saving the evidence until a much more opportune time. I have kept them this long, maybe at the convention!! TS
brisbane47
Well Known Member
Fran, the CanAm blocks were cast from Chevrolet 390alloy, (imbedded with free silicone particles,) that requires a very special finishing (honing) process to obtain the finish required. I use the Sunnen CK10 for the honing process and the final lapping operation. The blocks carried the part number of 3965755 for the 4.400 bore block. You could go out to 4.500 with this block. The displacement would end up at 430, 495, or 510 CI depending on the combination of bore/stroke. The Trans Am had a limit of 305 CI if I am not wrong, at least the 302 Chevrolet was legal, so it had to be more than 301CI. The rough bores in these aluminum engines could have been made to end up with 302 CI given the proper stroke. I made these engines with a much larger linered bore as they were not going to be small displacement engines anyway. I did a lot of work on the 390 alloy Chevrolet engine in the early seventies, and a lot of the linered blocks as well. I still have two. Have to go generate $, See Ya, TS
Fran Preve
Banned
Bris: yes the Trans Am limit was 305 cubic inches until 1970, the Can Am limit was unlimited. The more I ponder it the more I think the Chevy Can Am's (494's) were linerless (and with liners?). Of course theat great Ed Cole approved 4 cylinder engine with the cast iron head was linerless with a high silicon aluminum block, and except for the fact it had a cast iron head (BRILLIANT!) would have been a good motor. The best thing about it was it got me hired at Tonawanda!.
brisbane47
Well Known Member
Fran, the 4.400 block was available in 1970-71 as a linered block that could be a 430, 465, or 495 cubic inch engine depending on the stroke combination. The 390 alloy, (no liners,) came along in 1972-73, to make a 430, 495, and the 510 cubic inch engine using a combination of bore/strokes. So you are correct, the 495 could be had, with or without, liners. The pistons for the "390" block were different with the iron plating. TS
M
MK IISS
Guest
Trans-Am
Fran: The 1970 Trans-Am engine lime was still 5 liters/305.
Richard
Fran: The 1970 Trans-Am engine lime was still 5 liters/305.
Richard
Fran Preve
Banned
Your right, Ford kept the Boss 302 while Chevy went to the 360hp/350 and must have run the old 69 and earlier cars. Pontiac went to the 400/455 in the T/A, Chrysler had 340's in 1970. I thought they raised the limit in '70.