Another Clue To Original Engine

[oldskydog]

In all the previous threads on how to tell what engine originally came in your car, I don't remember any discussion on the electrical clues except for the ballast resistor. In reviewing the 61 Assembly Manual and the Service Manual, I noticed that in the wiring diagrams it specified a 4 guage positive battery cable for the 348 (and I assume the 409) and a 6 guage cable for the 6 and 283. Also it showed a red 12 guage power lead from the battery terminal on the voltage regulator to the positive terminal on the battery (across the top of the radiator support)for the 348 and a black 12 for the 6 and 283. I checked my early built 61 Impala 348 car and the wire was black although the positive battery cable was 4 guage not 6. Battery cables have probably been replaced in most cars so that may not be a definitive indication. I'm sure my car was an original 348 car so I'm wondering why it doesn't have the red wire instead of the black. It could have been changed or maybe the assembly manual and service manual are wrong as is sometimesthe case.
Can anyone with an original 61 348 or 409 (Tommy) check to verify the wiring as above?
I don't have manuals for 62 or 63 but I checked the 64 and it shows only the basic wiring diagrams without any options. The RPO's don't show specific wiring diagrams but they do list different part numbers for battery, battery retainer and bolts, battery cables, etc. for 409 applications.
For those trying to determine what the original engine was in their cars, these could be more clues worth pursuing. .

 

[rstreet]

Cecil I have a very late 61 and it is black. engine harness and battery cables I replaced. The car had a front end tap so??????
Robert

 

[Astro409]

I'm going to check my 409 1964 Impala to see what I have. If I don't have those cables i'm going to change them to those. You never know it might give me an extra point at a competition if the judges know about the cable difference. That's if I can ever get my car to a competition.

 

[CHEV601234]

"I'm going to check my 409 1964 Impala to see what I have. If I don't have those cables i'm going to change them to those"

Now you and others know what th change on an unreal car to make it appear to be a real car. Congrats to everyonne who helped!:

 

[real61ss]

Cecil,
I'm afraid I can't help, both of my '61 348 cars have the original wiring harness but that wire was a part of the pos. battery cable and not many cars still have the original battery cables. Most of those spring ring cables got replaced with the cables with bolts years ago.

 

[MRHP]

If someone wants to clone a 409, all the info is available to do so. Who gives a $hit if we discuss 409 correctness here. If not here, where? We cannot control what people do with information. This info may also help someone restoring their 409 car. I am sure it will. If someone uses it to decieve a seller on a bogus car, that is their problem! Sorry to vent but factual information is so hard to come by on these cars, it should be shared, not horded like a teenagers stash of Playboys!

 

[rstreet]

MRHP.. I see your point. I have a friend who is the original owner of a 63 409-425 and I look under his hood several times to see "what's going on". I am going to check his red wire tomorrow if I am getting near where it is stored
Robert

 

[MRHP]

Good for you!

Good! There is nothing wrong with being correct as possible. My car is an original 380 horse car. I got the papers to prove it. It is not restored correctly. This does not make it a "fake" or "clone". I love it just the same. Correct or not.

 

[oldskydog]

MRHP.. I see your point. I have a friend who is the original owner of a 63 409-425 and I look under his hood several times to see "what's going on". I am going to check his red wire tomorrow if I am getting near where it is stored
Robert

Robert,
I don't know if the red wire on a 63 will tell you much. The 61 wiring specified a redwire for the 348 but the 64 showed a red wire on the basic wiring harness for the 6 and production ( 283) V8. The RPO only lists part numbers with no color reference but you can bet that the 409 had a 4 guage positive cable instead of 6. It also showed a 4 guage brown ground cable for the 348 instead of 6 guage black for the 6 and 283.

A few more:
The temp sender wire on a 6 was 16 guage dark green and 20 guage dark green on the v8.

The armature wire (center term on VR to gen) was 14 guage brown for 30 and 35 amp gens and 12 guage brown for 40 and 45 amp gens.

Oil pressure sender wire is 16 guage dark blue for a 6 and 20 guage dark blue for a V8.

FWIW

 

[oldskydog]

"I'm going to check my 409 1964 Impala to see what I have. If I don't have those cables i'm going to change them to those"

Now you and others know what th change on an unreal car to make it appear to be a real car. Congrats to everyonne who helped!:

The info is available to anyone willing to read the factory manuals. It's only a secret to those who choose to be uninformed.

 

[Dick MacKenzie]

Some thoughts.....

and only thoughts, so take them for what they are worth .

I have a 62 Impala parts car that (I believe) started life as a police car. The engine is long gone, but it appears it was a 327, hp unknown. The car came with factory air and heavy duty equipment you wold expect to find on a police car. It has a red 10 gauge wire from the battery terminal on the voltage regulator to the positive post of the battery. The voltage regulator is big enough to run a small ship. The positive and negative cables of the battery are also long gone.

I realize the electrical system may have been upgraded since the car was intended for police use, but I'm wondering if the wiring system on these old cars are more heavy duty due to the added electrical draw of accessories and not based only on the engine choice.

 

[oldskydog]

and only thoughts, so take them for what they are worth .

I have a 62 Impala parts car that (I believe) started life as a police car. The engine is long gone, but it appears it was a 327, hp unknown. The car came with factory air and heavy duty equipment you wold expect to find on a police car. It has a red 10 gauge wire from the battery terminal on the voltage regulator to the positive post of the battery. The voltage regulator is big enough to run a small ship. The positive and negative cables of the battery are also long gone.

I realize the electrical system may have been upgraded since the car was intended for police use, but I'm wondering if the wiring system on these old cars are more heavy duty due to the added electrical draw of accessories and not based only on the engine choice.

Dick,
There was a 50 amp generator option in 61 and probably 62 as well which seems pretty appropriate for police or taxi application. Can you find a part number on that regulator? If you get the number, I can probably find the application.

 

[rstreet]

Cecil..I looked at my friend's 63 409 and his battery cables have been replaced so the original wire off the positive post is not original
Robert

 

[oldskydog]

Unfortunately that is probably the norm. Not many cars still have their original battery cables. I would think however, that most replacement battery cables would come with only a pigtail for the hot wire to the regulator which would normally be spliced into the original.

 

[rstreet]

I'm not sure we may have to refer to Walt(old parts store dog???) for that one. I have seen pigtails spliced and I have seen a few examples like mine that are one piece(black) going over to the regulator I guess you can order "custom length"
Robert

 

[tripower]

My 61 has the 4 gauge positive battery cable and the 12 gauge red power lead across the top of the radiator to the regulator but, again the cables have been changed. My question is where is the correct mounting location for the negative cable? On the water pump and, does it use the 3/8-16 bolt that has the stud on the head so the bolt does not have to be removed from the water pump to change the cable?

 

[real61ss]

"does it use the 3/8-16 bolt that has the stud on the head so the bolt does not have to be removed from the water pump to change the cable?"

Yes, this where the ground cable should be attached to the motor.

 

[oldskydog]

My 61 has the 4 gauge positive battery cable and the 12 gauge red power lead across the top of the radiator to the regulator but, again the cables have been changed. My question is where is the correct mounting location for the negative cable? On the water pump and, does it use the 3/8-16 bolt that has the stud on the head so the bolt does not have to be removed from the water pump to change the cable?

Dan,
Sect. 12 Sheet 4.00 in the 61 assembly manual shows the neg cable attached to the stud on the waterpump as you stated but keep in mind that is for the production V8 (283). If you have AC, it is bolted to the compressor bracket. I haven't found anything specific to the 348 but I think it likely that it is attached to the stud like the 283 except for AC cars. I'll need to do more research though, just to be sure.

 

[Dick MacKenzie]

Dick,
There was a 50 amp generator option in 61 and probably 62 as well which seems pretty appropriate for police or taxi application. Can you find a part number on that regulator? If you get the number, I can probably find the application.

Cecil,
There isn't much readable on this box any longer. Someone painted it with a rattle can at some time in it's history . I wasn't able to find any numbers on the painted end. On the rusted end the clearest number appears to be 1119502. Above that is 2A. Here's a pic.

Thanks,
Dick

 

[tripower]

Dan,
Sect. 12 Sheet 4.00 in the 61 assembly manual shows the neg cable attached to the stud on the waterpump as you stated but keep in mind that is for the production V8 (283). If you have AC, it is bolted to the compressor bracket. I haven't found anything specific to the 348 but I think it likely that it is attached to the stud like the 283 except for AC cars. I'll need to do more research though, just to be sure.

Cecil, I looked all through the assembly manual but only saw the 6 cylinder didn't see the the V8. Thanks. Notice on the pic that it just shows a stud and not a 3/8-16 hex head bolt with a 5/16-24 stud on the head of the bolt. I have always seen the hex head bolt with the stud. I don't recall ever seeing a stud like that. Just went to a wrecking yard yesterday looking for that very bolt and found one on a 65 Chevelle 283. I think that is what I am going to use. Going to have to be correct enough.