Blocks

[madchad]

I have been doing some thinking lately around blocks and suffix codes. Why would one block be better to have than another. If you take any of the 409 block's (trucks excluded) and rebuilt them to QB specs (cam, solid lifters, performance heads) what is the difference? Thanks in advance for the input.. C:

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

What's the deal with the numbers things?

Madchad:

I think many of us think just the way you do, that there is no big deal about these numbers and such. Let me give you an example from someone who thinks otherwise. It doesn't matter to most, but to me, I prefer things to be just like they were when they were made at the factory. I'm not terribly anal about this, but while others will paint their cars whatever colors please them (and I think this is just fine) some of us prefer that they be just like the VIN tag says they were back in 1958 - 1965.

I am one of those guys who likes what I call "period correct" restorations. I spend a lot of my time and a good amount of money in doing so, and I drive the resulting product with pride. I drive one of these every day. While I would prefer to own an orignal numbers matching car, I face the reality of the costs associated with such a vehicle, and since I drive them, not park and shine 'em, I'd rather have one that just looked like it was dead stock factory. So I have a few "clones". Two to be exact. Plus one dead stock original (one owner). Unfortunately the latter one is not a 409 (it's a 283 PG). So if I'm going to put a 409 in it I want the 409 at least "date coded" for the correct year (engine made before the car).

For example I have a 1 owner 1962 SS with that 283/PG combination. I want it to be a 409 with a 4 speed. I sought out and acquired a QB block that was made for a 1962 Chevy, located 690 heads for that same year (not that anyone will be looking inside the valve covers!), etc. This is what I call "period correct". I am not trying to fool anyone and the car/clone is for me, not some show/judging contest. And I intend to drive it everyday, if possible.

In addition I am building a '62 Bel Air "bubbletop", using the "cookie cutter" approach (new floor pans, new quarters, and so forth). When I put a car back together like this, I don't mind using another "not-so-period-correct" 409 engine. In the case of the bubbletop I intend to stroke a 1964 QD truck block and use the 583 heads, etc. So with me it depends on how I feel about the car.

I suspect it's the same with others. We modify them so that they suit our needs and our dreams. It's that simple. What one guy likes, another guy (or gal) doesn't, but that's OK, since it's your time and money. So long as we aren't trying to fool someone and make a profit off of this chicanery, it's all in good sport. It boils down to personal taste and to ethics.

I respect ANYONE who has the gumption to create one of these pieces of art, and my hat is off to those of you who have them already and are taking care of them. Even if you are making a so called "show car" and plop it on a slab of marble on top of a rotating platform under the spot lights...

We we modify 'em, we race 'em, we drive them on the streets, we show them, we do it all -- and it's all OK. From stock to modified and everything in between, that's the hobby. And this site is the best place to get info for all your needs, regardless of how you intend to use your vehicle (unless, I venture to say, you are out to buffalo some poor unsuspecting purchaser).

While I prefer "period correct" or "original numbers matching" cars, others would modify what I have. We are all just trying to have fun doing something we love to do.

That's it, and that's my 2 cents.

Giddyup, giddyup 409!

Tom Kochtanek

 

[dq409]

Tom,,,Thats more then two cents !! More like a quarter !!! LOL !!

I think you hit the nail square on the head !! Look at the pictures of my car and enjoy it for what it is,,,,NOT for what it isn`t !!

I know whats not right,,,but do I care ?,,,YES and NO !!

I feel lucky just to have this car and be able to drive it and race it. I`m changing things as I can afford to and believe what I`m doing improves the car from the condition it was.

If I had a pile of money I might change the way it`s going,,,but what it`s headed for now is a 60`s/70`s style crusing hot rod.

I like the period correct cars also and have a hard time with the purists that smirk at any car that has been modified and is not a numbers car.

Lke I said in an earlier post,,,In Vancouver last year at the Late Geat convention I got bored really fast looking at all the numbers cars. After a while they all started to look alike. No cars were showing the individual or personalitys of there owners.
On the other hand if I go to a Cruz-in I can spend hours looking at the way each person sets up their cars. This to me makes the sport of hotrodding what it is !!

To each their own,,,,,,,I like my car my way,,,dq

 

[jim_ss409]

Madchad, if you are wondering if the blocks themselves are any different, they're not. I think it's just that we can get a little silly on the numbers thing sometimes. But having said that I would have paid more for a date coded QB block that matched my car than I did for the truck block that I used. Even though the truck block is just as good or mayby better because of the notched cylinders. I'm glad that there are people out there enjoy keeping things authentic I do like seeing cars done like that. But there are days when I wish my car had originally come with a 283. Then I could have still put a 409 in it but I wouldn't have had to spend so much time and money on "correct" parts. All I can say is this is the last time I'm building a car that needs a $700.00 : air cleaner. I'm thinking high reving 409 powered gasser style 55 Chevy with too much cam and a 4 speed next time.

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

I agree

Jim:

I wholeheartedly agree with your recent post. In fact I am living it. I have a perfectly good "QD 622" from 1964, original bore. I also have a perfectly destroyed QB block date coded 1962 that once wore the 2x4 setup. Both have been to the machine shop for checkups. The QB block has sooooo many yellow markings on it where it needs repair that it's beginning to look like the Beatles' Yellow Submarine!

It has no less that three bores that are cracked. The others are rusted deeply (we can't even tell how many times it's been bored in the past). There is a crack atop between two cylinders, signs of where the motor last gave itself up. My machine shop guy tells me he can fix all this stuff, at great (current unknown) cost to me. His partner, the older guy, told me to "get another block, this one ain't worth crap". That's his opinion. It's my block (an dmoney). While not made of $$$, I plan to have those three slots sleeved and that crack cast welded. After that we shall see just how out of round those five remaining rusty holes are, and if I have to sleeve those, I will.

I could probably write a check and get another QB block, but that would take yet another one out of circulation. Since it's going in a driver (my '62 SS) and I will not be flogging it like DQ only can ( ), I feel confident that I will get long term duty out of this heavily repaired block. Plus it puts yet another QB back on the road...

But there is a limit to what I will do for correctness (In my heart I am a frugal cheapskate working on a limited budget). I do not intend to EVER pay $700 for a correct air cleaner! If I find one, and get a steal, that's great. In my opinion it covers up the beauty of the big 4 barrels, and the casual viewer may not even realize what lurks underneath that $700 piece of flat metal. I am going with aftermarket carbs, Moon valve covers (over rollers) and aftermarket chrome air cleaners. So I am not that anal about everything (especially if it's easy to change out at some later date, like covers and air cleaners), just the big pieces. If someone says to me "these numbers on your carbs don't match, or these numbers on your alternator aren't correct, I'll say: "Show me your engine" and "Exactly what do you do with it between wax jobs?". Then I'll get DQ and CPG to challenge 'em to a race for their numbers matching motors. When we win, we give the motor over to Bob. (Sorry if I've offended any of your guys out there waxing your cars this weekend!).

How's that for a plan??? Notice there's a lot of "We" in there, not "Me"

OK, I need to stop releasing words or DQ is gonna start charging me 25 cents again. I 'm saving up to build a new shop space.
I have more plans ahead, but they'll have to wait...

Cheers,
Tom K

 

[bobs409]

Hey, I like that part about giving Bob motors. Im for that.

I hope that block works out for you Tom. I admire your dedication to these great engines. I'd hate to see even 1 get tossed. We share the same philosophy on 409's.

 

[dq409]

As the Godfather of Soul said: "I FEEEL GOOD" ta da daa da da dada! ,,,,dq

and those trailer queens,,,,

 

[crawler]

WOW! Great content guys! I think this stuff goes right to the heart of it all and really showcases a part of the culture we have here. Thanks Bob, for pulling it all together.

I have one thorn in my side when it comes to numbers. It's the re-numbering or restamping of stuff. It seems to me that except for rare circumstances, this practice has only the soul intent of deception (usually to profit at someone elses expence). I recall the first time I saw a add advertising 'Reproduction' VIN tags - 'tell us what you want on it'. I naively thought ' THEY CAN'T DO THAT! Well silly me. Only by luck have I not been burned by this practice, but I know others that have and It hurts (especially if a whole car is involved). I have a good friend that paid high dollar for a posi rear that had the right date code for his car only to discover the assembly code had been hammered in, filled, and a new one stamped on top. Not only did he get burned, but it sort of wasted a perfectly good original posi. It's probably a bit silly, but I think all of our source material deserves respect -lo po blocks, truck blocks, low ratio rears, whole cars that arn't the cream of the crop etc. There not makin' the stuff anymore and there is a limited supply that seems to be shrinking.
I like clones, hot rods, wierd combos, all of It except dishonesty (restamping). What are your thoughts on this stuff?

Sorry for the long bla bla bla, and bad spelling?
Twenty five cents crawler

 

[bobs409]

I don't think anyone is making VIN tags but the cowl tags are being made. (and for about $200 a pop)

I once heard that it was illegal to even possess the rose head rivets that attach a VIN tag let alone make and sell the tag itself. Wouldn't do much good in my state as you would also need a title to go with it.

Im very much against restamping anything. That's just plain wrong. It's misrepresentation, fraud, etc. I'd consider anyone that does that a criminal.

And for respect, I have it for all old cars. They won't be making anymore so we have to cherish what's left. I cringe when I hear of an old car being parted out. I love 'em all from the plain jane 6 cylinder cars up to and including the big block's with all the candy.

 

[64ss409]

I guess in most situations, I have to agree with Bob on restamping engine numbers. However I have a situation that I caused myself and have no one else to blame, and don't know what to do about it.

About 15 years ago, we had the 402 out of my sons matching numbers 1970 Chevelle. The block was at the machine shop for boring .030 over. The machine shop called and said the block was crooked and should be decked. Since this car was going to be raced in the high school class for 3 more years, without thinking, I told him to deck it. When I got the block back, I realized what I had done, the numbers were gone. It was 7 or 8 years before I told my son. I would like to restore the original numbers on this block for him, but I have done nothing about it, don't even know who could do it and make it look exactly like it was.

I am not one to build a "matching numbers" car, but if it already is, I would like to keep it that way. I guess this one will never get restamped, but I wish I had thought for a minute or two before I told him to deck the block.

Ron

 

[bobs409]

Ok Ron, that would be about as close to having a legitimate reason to restamp as I could think of so your not a criminal. (of course I wasn't speaking about any of "our" members)

I was speaking of people that do this to make a profit.

As for restamping your engine, too bad you didn't think of just doing a "rubbing" of the numbers, maybe a few pics and a signed statement from the machinest to prove it's original. That would be plenty and you still wouldn't need to restamp it with all that.

 

[jester]

Numbers

Funning thing about metal. When you stamp it, it doesn't just dent the metal on the surface. It travels along way into the block. There is an mild acid test that the police use on firearms to reveal filed off numbers. The problem with the test is that the numbers only appear for minutes , then they are gone. If you had your camara ready, it would go alone way in the idenification of the block.

 

[dq409]

Crawler,,,,If you`re ever in Portland give me a ring !! send me an email and i`ll give you the contact info,,,,dq

 

[crawler]

Thanks, DQ, will doo
Just missed the Swap meet there this year and still feel the pain of not getting to spend three days exercising my eyeballs, even if a lot of the prices are a joke. It's still great entertainment.

Bob - I goofed, I did mean 'cowl tags', not 'VIN' tags, though I heard a non reliable rumor they were doing both.

Jester - That's interesting, I've wondered the same thing regarding gun numbers, block numbers and that acid test, or what ever it is that keeps coming up in TV crime shows. (The classic scene of the detectives talking to police lab guy about the filed off numbers and lab guy says "We managed to recover the numbers" and we see a shot of numbers magically appear under purple light. Imagine the same scene with a rare W block instead of a gun! Maybe the high dollar Corvette guys are already on to this.

Back to the numbers thing - There has been several times over the years I have phoned some place about parts (parts that are stamped) asking what he/they have, and he/they, inturn, tell me they can 'make' what I'm looking for. At that point, they don't get any more of my time. As I sort of said in my previous post, the thing that bugs me is, if the fraud of it isn't bad enough, this practice has the second negative of wrecking otherwise good original material :

crawler

 

[dq409]

Crawler,,,Here`s a good one.
This guy i know has a beautiful `65 corvette Roadster with a "factory" HP 327 that has a shaved block.
He had one of the high mucky-mucks from the National Corvette club go over his car. Mr. Mucky said it`s "standard" procedure and OK with the club and national "judging" to RESTAMP his block.
BULL HICKIE !!! Just because it`s a clean car it`s OK ????
This is a guy that does drive his car but always complains that he never wins at any of the car shows that he enters !!
Of course he "only" has entered Corvette ONLY shows !! Going against trailered cars and BIG buck owners.
I`ve been telling him if he wants to win he has to show in a normal car show/shine with us other "normal" owners.
Well this last weekend he finally showed at a local show and won first place ! TOLD HIM SO !!!!
The show was put on by the Ron Tonkin car dealer,,,,
GET THIS ,,,,Ron Tonkin who has one of the largest Farrari collection in the country entered two new cars off his show room floor (non-ownered) !!! Tacky !!
A $98,000 Maserati and a $200,000 Farrari !!! Very TACKY !!!
He beat them both !!!
WOW,,,Sorry TOO much caffeine YOO late !!

Just another car guy ramble !! ,,,,dq

PS,,,,Think this thread wins any records for most words ??

 

[dq409]

"O" Yeh,,,,,My point ,,,,Yes there was one,,,,,
I think if you could have the acid test ,,,then and ONLY then would it be OK to restamp a block or other part,,,, od`d

 

[crawler]

Yeah, DQ, I agree with Bull Hickie on that one. I guess the great Mucky Mucks are so god-like, they have decided it's OK to REWRITE history. Buy the way, that Bull Hickie guy, - is he a member of this forum?
Does anyone know if it's possible to shave a block and leave the stamping pad untouched

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

saving the numbers

Crawler asks: "Does anyone know if it's possible to shave a block and leave the stamping pad untouched"

My machine shop guy says he can do it. You just have to ask. I did. Haven't done it yet, but it appears to be possible upon request.

Tom K

 

[fourspeed409]

I will just stick to my truck block. That way I won't feel guilty if I scatter it all over the racetrack.

 

[tripowerguy]

I happened to be working for a guy who was a lawyer and told him how I liked old cars. He told me to come down in the basement garage and he wanted to show me something. He showed me a restored 36 Packard convertible. I asked him how long he had it, said 4 years but it had been finished 3 months. I said how does it drive, he said he didn't know, he hadn't had it out of the garage and wasn't until some show I never heard of. He was going to put it in an enclosed trailer and ship it to the show. he couldn't afford to have the under carriage marked up by road debris if he expected to win. I said when was he going to drive it? He said, after the show circuit, at the end of the year. Boy that really sounds like fun. Drive the snot out of them and enjoy the car. People who try to win car shows run up against people who will out spend them so they can have that trophy. All us guys want to do is have fun. Roy