CRW water pump, dissected.

desapience

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Well guys, as I prepare to compare a stock 409 water pump with a Lamar aluminum pump, I thought it proper to take a Lamar pump apart, and do a point-by-point comparison, in hand. Next weekend, I'll be comparing both a stock pump to this Lamar pump, installed on my stroker 446 '55' Belair -- to see if the Lamar pump actually can cool better.

I have posted a few pics here of my findings.

At first glance, the flow-ports of the Lamar pump are obviously larger -- not by all that much, but definitely larger -- which should translate into greater flow-rate (volume increases by the square of the increased radius, which means a that even a slightly larger flow-port path will make for a big increase in flow). Black arrows show some casting slag in the ports, which I will be removing.

On the outside, you can see the CRW logo, and that the casting is overall a nice looking piece. The inlet to the pump has what appears to be a circumferential welded bead for water hose sealing, which has been ground smooth (arrow).

Also two "x's" show where the heater hose and intake by-passes remain blank. That poses a bit of a problem for me since I do run a heater, and do want to use the intake by-pass. I'll have them drilled and tapped this week (hopefully) for the upcoming comparison.

Dissecting further (I used to teach Gross anatomy using cadavers in med school), I was disappointed to find only a stamped steel SBC style impeller. The stamped steel impeller has paint on the fins which was apparently used to check for adequate clearances with the backing plate. Two of the fins were ground down a bit (arrows). The bolts securing the plate are S.A.E 3/16" flat head allens (blind-tapped).

At the machine shop today where my 482 is being built, I placed a billet timing cover that I plan to use on the block, and then, tried to fit the Lamar pump over it. The water pump will not fit over such a timing cover -- it clashes severely with the timing cover, even with using flat-head allens on the backing plate.

Since I will be using the Billet timing cover, I will need to fabricate two 3/16" shims, with two gaskets on each side of the water pump to get the needed minimal clearance. That will also necessitate shimming the crank pulley the same 3/16". I have "Zoops alignright" alternator and A/C brackets, that will adjust easily for their proper belt alighment.

I did not have a stock timing cover to compare, but, will bring one to the shop to make that comparison, when I bring the pump back to be drilled and tapped for the water by-passes.

PS. I could not upload all the pics due to the 5-pic limit... see the following post for them.

Any comments?

Denis
 

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desapience

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Additional pictures

Here are the remaining pics of the Lamar WP, as described in my prior post on this thread

Denis
 

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desapience

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Cavitation plate

JimKwiatkowski said:
Denis,are you going to install a cavitation plate on the inpeller?IMO if that was my pump I would install a plate.Here's a link to Summit if your interested in a plate :dunno

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=BRA-3500-01&N=0&autoview=sku

Jim,

I already have a cavitation-plate kit, and want to install it, but, it's not that easy if you look at the pictures.. there is a clearance problem between the impeller and the backing plate ALREADY!

The solution, of course, is to place extra gaskets on the backing plate, as needed. But, you'd think that a total redesign of such a pump would have already provided for a better designed impeller or a plate already installed! It sure cost enough to expect it to be already done!

I'm first going to check for what clearance does exists, them go from there. Remember too, I also have a clearance problem with the billet timing cover! I refuse to Jerry-rig anything.

I'll update tomorrow evening on how this pump fits with a stock timing cover.

Man, I hope Edelbrock is reading these posts... I don't want to offend anyone, but I mean if they really are going to produce these aluminum pumps, IMO there's still room plenty of room for their improvement.

Denis
 

desapience

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Not to worry

JimKwiatkowski said:
Denis that's to bad,you spend all that $$$ and they install a stock inpeller in the pump.:doh

Jim,

All is not lost... the Lamar pump will be redone, internally, by a reputable machine shop out west, and have a proper impeller installed. The pump casting itself is good, the ports are larger, and I will overcome the disappointing shortcoming.

Trouble is, I will not be able to run the comparison test with the Lamar pump. However, what I will do is run a comparison test on a stock 409 pump with the 7" vesus 6" pulley you sent. That should at least provide some answers what flow-rates can do or not do to help cool these "W" engines.

By the time I do get the Lamar pump back though, it'll be going on my 482, but whether I use a 6" or 7" pulley will be determined by what happens this weekend.

Denis
 

dq409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
You really think Edelbrock is going to make any thing nicer then the CRW?

I seriously doubt it !!
In my opinion Edel stuff head and such are just a step better them stock in most cases.

There are far more superior stuff out there.

Don`t take that wrong, Edel makes good stuff but IMO there are far better parts available from other vendors in the same price range. (carbs excluded)

I think what you will get from Edel is a reproduction type water pump,,,,


My water pump rebuilder (second gen) uses these type impellers to move more water themn the stock ones for better cooling on race engines.
He does agree that they could be made stronger though.,,,dq
 

chevymusclecars

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
desapience said:
Jim,

All is not lost... the Lamar pump will be redone, internally, by a reputable machine shop out west, and have a proper impeller installed. The pump casting itself is good, the ports are larger, and I will overcome the disappointing shortcoming.

Denis

I am not going to buy a Lamar water pump but would like to know what you mean by a proper impeller? The stamped steel impeller has a better flow rate than the cast impellers ever had.

I agree with Gearhead, we would learn more by just knowing what a stock pump cools like with a six inch pulley and a seven inch pulley. Knowing the impeller type would be useful knowledge. If when the test is done you wanted to see if the cavitation plate made any difference that would also be useful but I am sure that you are already aware weahter conditions change and it is hard to maintain an inviroment unless you have a controled atmosphere for the test.
 

desapience

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Only between a 7" and 6" pulley

gearhead409 said:
????? if you are doing a comparison test between the two pumps, why are you modifying one of them before the test??? sort of changing the playing field. test doesn't mean much to me now.


No, the test is not going to be meaningless.

The test is now going to be with the same stock pump but using different sized pulleys... one run with a 7", the other with a 6"...

The increased flow rate is what is going to be compared. I cannot compare these runs with a stock Lamar pump because of what you said... But, the information gained from the actual testing of only the stock comparison, will help.

Denis
 

desapience

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
I agree totally

chevymusclecars said:
I am not going to buy a Lamar water pump but would like to know what you mean by a proper impeller? The stamped steel impeller has a better flow rate than the cast impellers ever had.

I agree with Gearhead, we would learn more by just knowing what a stock pump cools like with a six inch pulley and a seven inch pulley. Knowing the impeller type would be useful knowledge. If when the test is done you wanted to see if the cavitation plate made any difference that would also be useful but I am sure that you are already aware weahter conditions change and it is hard to maintain an inviroment unless you have a controled atmosphere for the test.

That is exactly what I plan to do this weekend, using only a stock pump already on the engine, and I will describe what type of impeller is involved.

The impeller in the Lamar pump is not clearing the backplate properly and was actually made to fit by using a grinding wheel -- you can see some of that in the pics I posted. Presently, there is unlikely any room for placement of a cavitation plate. Had everything been okay, I wouild have also tested the Lamar pump.

You know, it's not like I have a running engine on a test-stand, complete with a cooling system and fans to run this comparison. The engine is in my '55' Belair, and it's a PITA to remove/replace WP's over and over -- but, I will do it, not ony for myself, but, for the forum members to also learn from it.

Denis
 

Fathead Racing

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 7
Denis, you have mentioned the large ports in the aluminum pump a number of times, even with the "large ports" wouldn't the flow be detemined by the opening in the 409 block and the rest of the blocks water passages. Seems like the impeller would be a greater factor. I read Lamars web add on the water pump, "This will cure your overheating problems" yeah,,,,,Right! Any way it turns out, having Denis run a test will give us information that could help.
 

desapience

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Well, think again.

gearhead409 said:
if Lamar says it flows 25% more, i would believe him. he has never steered me wrong yet. besides, if Denis would quit trying to re-invent the wheel and put Lamar's pump on without modifying it, we could prove it. MAYBE ???

Okay now... I guess I should've included these two pictures of the internals last night. This is the backing plate -- showing two deep gouges -- scratched out by the impeller striking it. I could even hear it clashing internally when turning the pump by hand.

This is exactly how it looked upon dissasembly, and I seriously doubt anyone on this forum would install this pump with this kind of problem.

If you would bolt in on, more power to you -- but, I'm not. It will be properly assembled, with unmolested parts, BEFORE it goes on any of my engines, period!

Trust me on this, if ever I put my mind into re-inventng the wheel, I can assure you that it would roll true... like riding on flat glass.

I'm not attacking anyone regarding this pump... just the facts being passed on, and I will fix it to work as it should.

Denis
 

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desapience

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Time is a factor

fatride said:
Denis, you have mentioned the large ports in the aluminum pump a number of times, even with the "large ports" wouldn't the flow be detemined by the opening in the 409 block and the rest of the blocks water passages. Seems like the impeller would be a greater factor. I read Lamars web add on the water pump, "This will cure your overheating problems" yeah,,,,,Right! Any way it turns out, having Denis run a test will give us information that could help.

Fatride

I wanted very badly to be able to directly test the Lamar pump against a stock pump... and as GEARHEAD eluded to, my tampering with my Lamar pump amounted to only re-inventing the wheel.

I term it as "fixing" the thing to work properly! It needs a new wheel (impeller).

And, looking at the pictures of the backing plate, what would you do? Would you put it on a new 482 like that? Hardly. Maybe Nuts might put it on like this (just kidding Nuts).

Come on guys, all I'm trying to do is pass on accurate information and still going about the business of building-up my 482.

I'll be working my butt off this weekend to test a stock pump running a 7" pulley against the same pump running a 6" pulley... and, I would have loved to compare that to the Lamar pump -- but.... I will not get it back in time for that to make sense. By then, I'll be removing my stroker 446 from my '55'.

Denis
 

SS425HP

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Bad Pump

Sure don't blame you for not putting that pump on. You know that it had to make that noise before shipping. Some one screwed up. Not a good part to put out, especially for the money they charge. Good thing you noticed it.
 

desapience

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Yes and no

SS425HP said:
Sure don't blame you for not putting that pump on. You know that it had to make that noise before shipping. Some one screwed up. Not a good part to put out, especially for the money they charge. Good thing you noticed it.

I did not buy it directly from Lamar, but it came to me from a "dealer" who did get it directly from Lamar, on my order.

The guy I bought it from is stone-cold honest, and offered to give my money back, which I refused because he will help to fix it. Had the dealer noticed it, he would not have sold it to me like that.

I agree, that given the cost of the pump, I should not be dealing with this problem, but, hey, we're building streerods and hotrods, and if a little thing like this is going to stop us, we're only fooling ourselves into believing we know what we're doing, right?

This is simply a problem that can and will be solved. Outisde of this problem the piece looks very nicely done...

Denis
 

Ronnie Russell

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Denis, I understand gearheads post, it would have been good to directly compare the two pumps, but noone can blame you for not using that particular pump. I think what some of us would have done , would be to send the pump back and request a replacement. For that kind of money, you should get a decent product. Good luck with the compairison pulley tests. Even something that simple will be interesting. :)
 

Bam59

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
Denis,,, in your pic's it looks like the impeller has hit the body of the pump to?
i have looked inside my pump and your impeller has much less clearance
between the body and of course the backing plate. good luck on the testing,
i would have to fix it to.

.
 
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