GM dead?
- Thread starter Ronnie Russell
- Start date
Richard/SIA
Well Known Member
So tell me. What are cars?
Cars are the freight platforms that go between the Engine and the Caboose of a railroad train.
Most modern automobiles have more in common with "Cars" than anything I would want to ride in.
Most cars of today are mere appliances, boring plastic festooned disposable goods bought from necessity rather than actual desire to own them.
Maybe once the "Big 3" are gone we can revive the American Automobile industry?
Just read on the internet Ceo s of foriegn car co. make 10 to15 times more than the lowest paid worker, Rick Wagner of GM makes 350 times more. ITS ALL THE UNIONS FAULT. Alabama gave Toyoata 500 Mil. in land, clearing the land, installed all the utilties and in tax forgiveness. IT'S ALL THE UNIONS FAULT. Just my opinion but the day they break all the unions is the day everyone goes to work and are informed they are working for minimum wage with no beifits Bo retired UMWA
Bo, Your opinion exposes how complicated this issue is. The UAW works under a contract . In my opinion, a deal is a deal. Cutting retirement benefits is evil. I, myself, survive on a small pension and can only hope the fund is safe. Who knows what to believe nowadays? I hear the argument about how the foreign automakers employ Americans so that is a good thing. Are we to believe that the foreign makers are doing American workers a favor? Hardly. They built factories here for one reason. Profit. Money sent back overseas. The state governments that made the concessions to allow this are wrong. Good for their states,, bad for the country. Ford was actually making a few dollars in the first quarter of 2008. Then the financial crisis happened ( no credit ) and Ford began to lose. GM and Chrysler were losing money during a healthy economic market. That is the difference. GM and Chrysler have to downsize to survive. This will cost many jobs but what else can be done? It may take 2 years for the economy to recover enough for people to actually buy enough cars to make a difference. From what I understand, Chrysler is dead, too far gone to save. They will recieve some bail out money, but they must sell to a foreign investor quick. The big question is , can GM survive, even with the bailout money. In my opinion, they will recieve the money before the Asian markets open tonight. The next 6 months will tell who survies and who does not. The UAW retirement benefits must be protected but new contracts have to be worked out to compete with transplant factories. Very complicated issues. We have no say. We have the right to our own opinions but it is in the hands of government leaders. That is scary. Write your congressman?? Write your senator?? Good luck. They don't listen to citizens. Will have to watch and see how it unfolds. Of course these are just my opinions and don't mean anything. Just needed to vent a little bit.
Living in Michigan I know quite a few people that work for the big 3. A small piece of the pie that no one has touched on, including the media to my knowledge, has rubbed me the wrong way for a long time now. I don't know what the UAW calls it, but I call it wrong.
Here's just one example: One guy in particular worked a total of 3.5 months this year. ( I know this because I constantly get my nose rubbed in it. ) The rest of the time he reported to work, went and sat in the cafeteria and watched TV or played cards all day. He collected his full paycheck for this and feels there is nothing wrong with it. Although he did complain that it is boring and stupid for him to have to drive in when he's doing no work. "Why cant I just stay at home and have them mail me my check?"
I hear this story over and over, in different variations, from the people I personally know that work for GM/Ford/Chrysler. Sorry guys but I hope each and every one of them lose their job and have to join the real work force where you only get paid when you actually WORK!
That's it, Thanks for listening to me rant.
Dan
Here's a link to the exact thing I am talking about. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/12/politics/otherpeoplesmoney/main4595068.shtml
Here's just one example: One guy in particular worked a total of 3.5 months this year. ( I know this because I constantly get my nose rubbed in it. ) The rest of the time he reported to work, went and sat in the cafeteria and watched TV or played cards all day. He collected his full paycheck for this and feels there is nothing wrong with it. Although he did complain that it is boring and stupid for him to have to drive in when he's doing no work. "Why cant I just stay at home and have them mail me my check?"
I hear this story over and over, in different variations, from the people I personally know that work for GM/Ford/Chrysler. Sorry guys but I hope each and every one of them lose their job and have to join the real work force where you only get paid when you actually WORK!
That's it, Thanks for listening to me rant.
Dan
Here's a link to the exact thing I am talking about. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/12/politics/otherpeoplesmoney/main4595068.shtml
Amen to that. Everyone brings up valid points. But what people don't seem to realize is the wages they always quote are not what a worker makes. That includes retiree cost as everything. The hourly wages are competitive. I know many people who work in the auto industry, and they have been putting in tiered scales for years. Entry level is @ $14. The foreign co. do not have retirees here to pay for. Labor cost is only 10% of operating cost so the union is not the problem. If they worked for free they still would be in trouble.
I have watched hours of these procedings and have never heard a single senator question the trade agreements that have put our companies at a disadvantage for decades. Politics are what killed the bill. The republicans want to break the union b/c most of them vote dem.
All that aside I think there is another thing noone has mentioned. National Security. Without a manufacturing base in the event of large scale war your dead. We won WWII b/c we could out produce Germany. What would happen with a big country like China. We've let our plants go there in the name of bigger profits for already rich business owners at the cost of our own citizens. When the foreign cars started coming here way back when and the big three tried to invest in Japan, their protectionist govt. wouldn't let them but we opened our doors gladly. Imagine a USA without these companies. Our govt. would have to buy every single vehicle from a foreign supplier. Military,state, county, they can't let that happen.
oil4kids
Well Known Member
One last thought,
Did anyone read about this guy madman Bernard Madoff, who had bilked investors out of 50 billion and now they have nothing- he was running as total ponzi scam mostly with mega rich investors including Steven Speilberg and the owner of the Mets etc etc
If he would have invested that 50b into the big 3, we would have outstanding technology vehicles and rich union workers, and richer exectutives, but the investors would still have some of there investment instead of 0 dollars.
I hope no one here had anything to do with this guy.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12162008/news/regionalnews/crash__bernie_after_evil_con_144468.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4BE6N420081215
Did anyone read about this guy madman Bernard Madoff, who had bilked investors out of 50 billion and now they have nothing- he was running as total ponzi scam mostly with mega rich investors including Steven Speilberg and the owner of the Mets etc etc
If he would have invested that 50b into the big 3, we would have outstanding technology vehicles and rich union workers, and richer exectutives, but the investors would still have some of there investment instead of 0 dollars.
I hope no one here had anything to do with this guy.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12162008/news/regionalnews/crash__bernie_after_evil_con_144468.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4BE6N420081215
Stick62
Well Known Member
And in the great spirit of America, he says "I did nothing wrong".......
The Ill Governor: "I did nothing wrong"
They GOTTA start hanging these a**holes. If we stole a tank of gas we'd go through more than these corporate idiots stealing billions in one pop. Somehow, White collar crimes are not punishable in the same way as others. Its a shame.
Sometimes our way of justice ( plea bargaining ) is too lenient and forgiving.:takethat Maybe someone should cut, both his hands off.
One last thought,
Did anyone read about this guy madman Bernard Madoff, who had bilked investors out of 50 billion and now they have nothing- he was running as total ponzi scam mostly with mega rich investors including Steven Speilberg and the owner of the Mets etc etc
If he would have invested that 50b into the big 3, we would have outstanding technology vehicles and rich union workers, and richer exectutives, but the investors would still have some of there investment instead of 0 dollars.
I hope no one here had anything to do with this guy.
yep.... Mass Mutual was hit by himand I've got them. Donations accepted
robert
Additional comment
My only comment regarding how much any CEO makes is this,
The salary was set, offerred and approved by a board of directors. The same is true of the banks. I don't disagree that CEO's make WAY too much. I will say as figure heads, CEO's should and do get fingers pointed at them. In addition, we should look at the bigger picture and when CEO's are ousted, maybe the board which put them in place should be ousted as well.
BTW, offer me any sum of one million plus to run a company into the ground, I'll take it
My only comment regarding how much any CEO makes is this,
The salary was set, offerred and approved by a board of directors. The same is true of the banks. I don't disagree that CEO's make WAY too much. I will say as figure heads, CEO's should and do get fingers pointed at them. In addition, we should look at the bigger picture and when CEO's are ousted, maybe the board which put them in place should be ousted as well.
BTW, offer me any sum of one million plus to run a company into the ground, I'll take it
My only comment regarding how much any CEO makes is this,
The salary was set, offerred and approved by a board of directors. The same is true of the banks. I don't disagree that CEO's make WAY too much. I will say as figure heads, CEO's should and do get fingers pointed at them. In addition, we should look at the bigger picture and when CEO's are ousted, maybe the board which put them in place should be ousted as well.
BTW, offer me any sum of one million plus to run a company into the ground, I'll take it
The board of directors IS the problem. For the most part, boards are made up of CEOs and executives of other corporations. They scratch each other's backs.
It's an incestuous relationship.
:
Just curious, but has anyone heard about the 2009 NASCAR plans? No way the stockholders are going to allow Ford, GM, or Chrysler to spend money on a race program with the financial situation being what it is. I havent watched any of the race oriented TV shows. Just wondering if anyone has seen discussions on this.
Ronnie from what I've heard is that the factory backing isn't there like before and it seems like the dodge teams are taking the biggest hit. I just read today that Mansfield motorsports park in Ohio is closing and the craftsman truck race is canceled and moving to the Iowa speedway. As far as the nextel cup series the way things are going it will be all Toy@&tas. Vin
Stick62
Well Known Member
Yeah, I read today that Ford says its NOT pulling out of NASCAR.....
But they all want money. I like racing as much as the next guy,..... did enough of it.... But NONE of the car companies have any business dumping millions into Racing when they are going under. Congress should have told them THAT also when they told them to dump their private planes.
Mark
I'm not a big fan of Nascar,but I did read in one of the car magazines last week,that the Bush races are going to be using Camaros,Mustangs,Challengers and Toyota is using Camry's for year 2010. Supposely their going to the 110 inch wheel base cars.I guess this all depends on whether or not the big 3 stay in business.Nothing was mentioned about sponsorship drops or cutbacks . John
Stick62
Well Known Member
Blah, Blah, Blah.
Build better cars and take out more TV time. I dont think people are leaving the racetrack to run to the nearest dealershiip and buy a new car ....
Mighta been the way when we had all the good Muscle cars out there from 62-70 or so. They could spend their "advertising" money better.
Sure, I'll bet they CLAIM it makes them money....if there choices made them so much money we wouldn't be in the state we are now. They're all full of crap.
They want what THEY want....
It is a sad state world wide
I have been on both ends of union issues and at this stage dont belong to a union. My employer gives every employee an annual pay increase close too inflation rate. And if you are worth your salt and put some effort in to help the company survive and be competative you get other benefits aswell (extra paid time off, paid weekends away accomodation etc provided for you and your family). He doesnt like people doing heaps of overtime as he believes it destroys family life and values, and get this he doesnt even own his own house (left money in company to make it more able to weather hard times). I think the big three could learn from this type of thinking and quite a few on here have said about it is better to have a lower paying job than none at all, this goes for the guys at the top aswell i agree and if things come to that i would be in. In NZ we have a government that is dumb
and lets every other country buy up things over here and all of the proffit goes off shore i think it is time world wide to tighten the belt and look at a bit of self support and suffiency. Anyway what would a 602DHT 348 be worth new today
. steve
I have been on both ends of union issues and at this stage dont belong to a union. My employer gives every employee an annual pay increase close too inflation rate. And if you are worth your salt and put some effort in to help the company survive and be competative you get other benefits aswell (extra paid time off, paid weekends away accomodation etc provided for you and your family). He doesnt like people doing heaps of overtime as he believes it destroys family life and values, and get this he doesnt even own his own house (left money in company to make it more able to weather hard times). I think the big three could learn from this type of thinking and quite a few on here have said about it is better to have a lower paying job than none at all, this goes for the guys at the top aswell i agree and if things come to that i would be in. In NZ we have a government that is dumb
and lets every other country buy up things over here and all of the proffit goes off shore i think it is time world wide to tighten the belt and look at a bit of self support and suffiency. Anyway what would a 602DHT 348 be worth new today. steve