IRS & rigid frame for a 59?

[Richard/SIA]

I'm building a '59 El Camino from the frame up.

I want to strengthen the frame, the "X" frame is pretty flexible.
I'm not interested in drag racing, more like road racing.

I also want to upgrade the suspension, IRS is a definite part of my plan.
I see two choices, Corvette or Jag.

Anyone ever done either one?

I know the Jag is easy to mount, and the four coil over shocks make it easy to set the ride height.
The Vette rear keeps it all Chevy, but I understand the spring rate and ride height can be a problem.

I keep finding C4 Vette chassis cheap, maybe just put the body on a Vette chassis?

Anyone out there with experience of these idea's?

 

[SpeedyV10]

You bring up interesting questions as it has always been a dream of mine to make an X-frame car boogie through the turns.

I have read articles in the past about replacing suspension components in these cars to make them handle fairly well. I am sure that changing front control arms, spindles, as well as poly bushing everything would do wonders for the 'parade float' stock handeling of our cars in their stock form.

Upgrading the stock rear solid axle to a 4 link set up or similiar would indeed liven up the tail section. A corvette IRS would be awesome to make fit in one of our cars.

Have you ever considered ordering a full boogie perimeter frame from a reputable builder (like an Art Morrisson Chassis) and completely ditching the X frame? I am
sure that if you had the type of skills to re-configure an X frame to Corvette suspension, it would be just as much of a challenge to sawzall out the floor of a car, and section it over a perimeter chassis.

Someday......I hope to order one of these Chassis, and build a perimeter framed B-top, with all the modern characteristics that one would want. Big motor, 6 gears, A/C, modern interrior, and handeling that would make a Z06 jealous!

 

[1958 delivery]

Someday......I hope to order one of these Chassis, and build a perimeter framed B-top, with all the modern characteristics that one would want. Big motor, 6 gears, A/C, modern interrior, and handeling that would make a Z06 jealous!

Admirable goals, however to make that ZO6 jealous you'll probably need to find a way to lose about 1000lbs or so!

 

[Richard/SIA]

I know the Vette rear can be done.......

I know the Vette rear can be done because I saw it under a black chop top '59 El Camino in the CA bay area many years ago.
He also ran a 454, very few people would race him if they had a clue!

My understanding is that the Jag rear is easier to put in, and the bolt circle is the same for both.

The next question becomes improving the front suspension.
So far this has been the hard one.

The best suspension possible is wasted on a flexible frame.

I'm not rich, so ordering up a custom frame is out of the question.
I do have saws, welders, and machine tools.
So if anyone knows a good plan to reinforce the original frame, I can probably do that.

I do need to put in a new passenger area floor, this will have to wait until the frame question is settled.

On another forum someone suggested going from an "X" to "IXI", adding some reinforcement to each side.

I'm also thinking of adding a simple roll-bar inside the cab while the body is off.
The roll-bar hoop should ad a little stiffness, but not a lot.

There are TONS of after-market suspension kits available for the "Tri-5's", R&P steering, big brakes, etc.
I need to know if they can be used on a '59, the ads and articles ignore anything newer than '57.

 

[Tic's60]

http://www.artmorrison.com/rearclips/tri4bar/index.cfm has a good 4 bar kit I am looking at. It's the lower one.

Also did you see how another member cut his X out and put in his own? In the pic you can see renforcment all over the place. Might help.



As far as the front you can

1. replace all of the a arms with tube type 500.00 +
2. replace the springs/ shocks with adjustable coil over type 700+
3. New HD sway bar system 500.00+
4. New steering box 500 series (I think that's the one) PS system 700.00+
5. Go with the lightest motor and componets you can get with the most power $$

And that's about it as far I have researched. Other than cut the whole front half off and graft on a vette system.

 

[SpeedyV10]

Admirable goals, however to make that ZO6 jealous you'll probably need to find a way to lose about 1000lbs or so!

At this point.....it's just a dream. I know that taking on such a project would be way over my head at this point but.......This hobby would not be what it is today if it weren't for the dreamers. Maybe someday!!!!!!!

 

[Richard/SIA]

Front suspension mods.

RE: Front suspension mods.

Other than cut the whole front half off and graft on a vette system.

Can anyone confirm that this is a truly worthwhile modification?

I often find C4 Vette fronts on Craigslist for about $300!
Whole Vette's can be had for under $2K, rolling chassis without a body or drive train for under $1,000.

 

[Tic's60]

Well the car would be modern all the way around and should handle pretty damm good. It would take allot of work to graft the entire running gear under the car but it could be done. There are a few members here who have removed the x frame in the middle so the rest should be possible.
It seems to be a popular swap in the older pickups and others. Was just a thought though...

RE: Front suspension mods.



Can anyone confirm that this is a truly worthwhile modification?

I often find C4 Vette fronts on Craigslist for about $300!
Whole Vette's can be had for under $2K, rolling chassis without a body or drive train for under $1,000.

 

[kodamar]

It's almost that time again... Just seeing the letters "IRS" makes my stomach feel funny...

 

[Tic's60]

In the Feb 2008 issue of Street Rodder is a 1960 Impala 4 door that uses all C4 vette drivetrain! So you might try and locate a number for him, he lives in UT, and see how they did it.

later

RE: Front suspension mods.



Can anyone confirm that this is a truly worthwhile modification?

I often find C4 Vette fronts on Craigslist for about $300!
Whole Vette's can be had for under $2K, rolling chassis without a body or drive train for under $1,000.

 

[Richard/SIA]

I saw that article, I was disappointed.....

I saw that article, I was disappointed that is was just a pictorial.

I wanted details, but all they had were pictures of the finished car.

No way to judge the quality of the chassis work from the scant article, too bad.

I am going to see if the custom shop that did the work will share any information, beyond how big a check to send them!

With 2008 being the 50th anniversary for the 1958 Chevy, and the "X" frame, you would think the rags would have more for us than this.

 

[J & J]

IRS & ridged frame

Go to a web site Progressive Automotive they put corvette suspension under anything.

 

[Richard/SIA]

I've been there before, revisiting did help.

I think I may be able to use something similar to their "X" brace in my car.

I guess I need to take my body off to see what the frame really looks like.

I'm hoping some additional braces and fish plating will take care of the basic chassis.

I do have easy access to fabrication equipment.

I'm going to try to pick up a C4 Vette chassis or suspension.

I can probably make them fit, I now know it can be done, so I'm confident I can do it too.
And I will post pics!

 

[jim_ss409]

I think you've got the right idea there. Just get the stuff and figure it out as you go along. I bet it'll turn out really well.

 

[threeimpalas]

Admirable goals, however to make that ZO6 jealous you'll probably need to find a way to lose about 1000lbs or so!

It may surprise you, but the Z06 is only ~400 pounds lighter than a '59. Stiffen-up the frame and body, improve the chassis geometry, add an engine with a similar power/weight ratio, and go Z06 hunting. A C5 Z06 would be a bit easier to turn green than a C6 Z06.

 

[jwhotrod]

corvette suspension

Be very, very careful about doing that. Epecially c4 and newer vette suspensions. They are biased for the stock grossly offset wheels that were original equipment on the cars. You alter the wheel base and track width and they really screw up handling. I have seen streetrods that look cool going down the road and would seem in most cases have better handling. but get em in the rain or on grass, or thrashing in road courses and the rear ends will contribute to oversteer and you can end up looking at yourself before you know what happened. It gets worse if you change wheels, cause the vette wheels are offset to the outside of the rim and the ackerman angles and camber are setup from there, if you use center mount or deepdish chrome reverse or some thing you move the turn radius as much as 3-5" per side. I look at that stuff in magazines and it always looks cool but that DOES NOT means it goes up the road!!!

Big Jim

 

[1958 delivery]

It may surprise you, but the Z06 is only ~400 pounds lighter than a '59. Stiffen-up the frame and body, improve the chassis geometry, add an engine with a similar power/weight ratio, and go Z06 hunting. A C5 Z06 would be a bit easier to turn green than a C6 Z06.

I'm assuming a "W" in the 59. Also make things equal, AC, PS/PW etc in the 59. I think it'll weigh more than an extra 400lb...but I could be wrong!
Of course if all else fails, boost the horses up some!

 

[Richard/SIA]

I gave up on Z06, C4 is much cheaper!

I gave up on Z06, C4 is much cheaper!

I just missed out on a complete rolling C4 Vette chassis, for $300!

They are common for about a grand.

I will do some more research on the offset question.
I will probably have to run three piece wheels anyway, if I hide them with "Moon" covers they don't even have to match front and rear.

Speaking of wheels, I'm disgusted that 15" 50 series tires are becoming impossible to find, my car just won't look right with bigger wheels.

Another option is to upgrade the stock front with custom adjustable A arms, then put a Jag IRS in the rear.
The major advantage for the Jag rear is that it uses coil springs, so changing the spring rate and ride height is easy.

 

[models916]

Nice frame pics

Good reference photos for the X frame.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1961...ryZ34200QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Richard/SIA]

380" "W", no PS, no PW, no AC!

380" "W", no PS, no PW, no AC!

Those type of accessories just slow you down.
PS & AC take about 7 HP each, power windows are extra weight.

I'm trying to come up with a good manual rack & pinion steering.
Door glass may become plexi-glass to save weight.

I am also looking to see where else I can shave some weight, there are rumors of fiberglass body parts that were made a few years ago.
A one piece tilt front would be great to find!

380" engine, 348 with a 409 crank.
I still need the crank.