Mixed Results Last Night @ local 1/8th track

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
This was my first time running my car again since Memorial Day of 2006. Some history to catch everyone up on it:
When I first started racing, I ran a MILD 468 BBC, TH400, 2800 RPM 11" conv, 4.88 posi in original housing, all stock suspension including worn bushings and SBC front springs. MT 28x10.5's. Front end sat about 2" lower with heavy rat motor. Weight around 3750 lbs with driver. Bests: et = 8.05 MPH = 87.0 60' = 1.800
Would pull the driver's front tire about 8" on launch. Drove to and from track. (Maybe I should have left it like that??)

Between getting married and having 4 kids, and suffering engine failure with a more radical 468 that didn't make it through the break in. (No more flat tappets for me!!) It was along time before I raced again with my current 433". It's pretty nasty with 13.5:1, a big solid roller, 950 HP Holley, 2 1/8" Headers, etc. I had also installed a 10" convertor (hoping for around 4,000 rpm stall) and a 12 bolt with a spool, but still 4.88 gearing. Lightened to about 3550 with driver.
I made a few trips to the track with the following fairly consistent results:
et = 7.30's MPH = 94.5 to 96 60' = 1.76
Lightening the front end had caused my front end to be "topped out" which gave me ZERO weight transfer and on top of that...my 10" convertor wouldn't stall much more than stock and I couldn't foot break it past 1800 without it pushing through the lights. Car was very lazy through most of the 60', but then charged very hard. Was scary at speed due to alignment issues.

Over the last 3 years, I have gotten divorced, have custody of my kids, rebuilt the front suspension, added Moroso trick springs, Summit shocks set at 90/10, swapped in a TCI 8" stall rated at 5,500 (actual footbreak rpm is 4,000 to 4,500) dropped weight down to nearly 3400 lbs with driver and added an adjustable upper control arm and panhard bar. I was really hoping to run around 6.90's to 7 flat considering the previous 96 MPH, lower weight and higher stall. I figured the 60' alone should drop to the 1.50 something range. Boy was I dissappointed!!! My tach which has always worked quit in the staging lanes before my first pass so I had to drive by ear all night. The timing system was messed up on my first pass, so I got no numbers except for a 1.804 sixty foot time. (Mild burnout and took it easy for first pass to check the car out.)
My second run, I left okay, weight transferred well, but still spun. At about half track I hit something slick from a previous oil down in my lane and the car snatched hard to the right into the other lane so I lifted and coasted through at 45 MPH. My 60' was worse yet at 1.844.
My third pass I redlighted, but lifted the driver's front like it used to and felt like a good pass. When I got the time slip my side of it was all zeroes. Apparently I left before the tree was activated or something?? My fourth and final pass.... Again I pulled the driver's front and it felt like a strong pass, but the time slip was dissappointing. et = 7.59 MPH = 90.45 and 60' = 1.76
I was really thinking my 60' should have been much better. I've never driven anything with so much stall, so not sure if I was hooking 100% or not. Don't think I was. Also, my water temp was already at 180 before each pass and over 220 on the return road. It was very hot (over 90) and there was a thunderstorm over the lake about 5 miles away so the humidity was extreme. I have no idea what rpm I shifted at. :bang :bang On a few positive notes....I had a great time. Saw lots of old friends. Everyone who didn't know what I should have run was impressed, and the car worked great as far as going straight and stopping well. Hopefully I can get back in a couple weeks with a working tach and more cool down time between runs. Between that and maybe getting some time slips to look at I can at least try to figure out where my 6 MPH went. Maybe I was short shifting it that much?? Was still AWESOME to go down the track again. Wish I could have been with ya'll at Thompson.
 

bubbletop1961

Well Known Member
The 1/8th mile time and speed dont look out of the ordinary. Maybe the short shifting, or to much torque convertor slippage. 2 things that come to mind right away. A convertor to loose can eat up some mph on the big end. Are you at a 1/8 mile track, no 1/4 mile times?
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Thank you for the reply Brian. Yes it's only 1/8th mile. The closest 1/4 mile track is about 65 miles away and is an NHRA track so I'd have to have a rollbar to pass tech. Don't get me wrong, I plan on having a rollbar ASAP, but got tired of waiting on it so went to the local "outlaw" track. It's pretty much run what you brung. I don't even think they check for helmets or seat belts. I know the looser convertor could eat some MPH, but was hoping that the better leave would make up for that since the last time I went the car was barely moving through the first 30 or 40 feet so it wasn't building any MPH yet. I was kinda hoping for around 100 MPH last night. Regardless of the MPH and whether or not I was short shifting due to the tach quitting....I am very confused about the 60' time. It was exactly the same as 3 years ago, but I've mad some big changes. The new convertor stalls over 4,000 rpm vs the old one not even making it to 2,000. The front springs and shocks allow the car to weight transfer really well like it used to. How can it go from leaving really lazy and level then pulling like a train on down the track to leaving hard and snatching the tire up yet still run the exact same 60 foot time? :dunno I wonder if I was shifting out of first before the 60 ft mark too soon? I guess I need to stop thinking about it until I get the tach fixed and make some more passes. :doh
Oh in case you wonder if the tighter convertor was better matched to the engine....it wasn't at all. My duration at .050" is 278 intake / 282 exhaust and the cam calls for a 5,500 convertor so the current one should be a step in the right direction. I am going to try my best to get someone to video it next time. I have a camera, but no operator.
 

bubbletop1961

Well Known Member
Found a timeslip, My poor pump gas sbc had a good day a while back. Weather was outstanding car ran great. 1/8 times were 7.765@86.85. Which is a 12.30's pass. Your 1/8 times are just better, not to out of whack. I would say car ran good just need to work on the tune, set up, or shift points to optimize. A good starting point.
 

bubbletop1961

Well Known Member
It was 1.679 60' Which is better than usual. It consistantly does low 1.7's I agree that might be a little scewed. I do have a transbrake. I have a 2 step hooked up to it to control rpm at launch. Its a TCI 10" super street fighter rated 3500-3800. I pushed it all the way to 4400 and hit the chip that day. wont usually go that high. It does leave good with the set up for a sbc.
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Also I notice your car leaves nice and level for the most part. Mine twists alot. Not as bad as the Mr. 409 car, but in the same manner. I guess it's time for me to finish my coil over project or buy some air bags. I am currently running those "helper-spring" shocks on the rear. You'd think they would make it stiff enough not to squat on the right rear so bad.
 

bubbletop1961

Well Known Member
I did a 12 point cage just for that reason. Didnt need it for the speed Im going but felt it would really help the car. And just safer. I do use a air bags in the rear. Just started playing with them, about 10#'s more in the rh than lh. It also has 6cyl spring in the back. Boxed lowers w/ pst bushings and a solid w/ heims single upper. A very basic set up.
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
What was your reason for the 6 cyl springs in the rear? Did they lower it or are they just softer? Or both?
 

bubbletop1961

Well Known Member
I wanted them to be soft so the car would squat. Worked very good at the speeds Im going. I figured If they were to soft I would start adding air to the bags(air lift bags). But It hasnt been neccesary. Just recently have I started to use the bags and dont have enough info to say if they are helping or not. Being lower was not the reason, but I dont mind that either.
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
I wonder if I would get similar results with a 6 cyl spring on the driver's side and a V8 spring on the passenger's since that is the side that needs preloading? Wonder if anyone has tried that.....
 

chevytaylor

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
1961BelAir427, congrats on gettin back down the track :beerbang

Like Brian said, could be in the tune. Sounds like you should be making a lot more power than you currently are. What is your timing curve? Do you know the air fuel ratio?
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Thanks Carl, I've got the total set on 38* and it's all in around 2,000 if I remember correctly. Only mechanical advance. I'm thinking of locking my timing and not running a curve since the plugs seem to stay cleaner with more timing. I don't know the air fuel ratio, but they have a nice light brown color if I'm running it hard, but are really dark if I am just letting it run to keep it from going bad sitting up. The carb is a 950 with 78 jets all the way around and power valves on both sides....just like it came out of the box. Now that you ask I remember I had ran with 82's all the way around last time. That may be where some of the MPH went. It really seems to like the extra fuel, but at the same time it smells really rich when I have it jetted up like that. I also just remembered that I had some short (10") collector extensions on last time. I had taken them off for clearance while working under the car recently. Fuel is a mixture of 93 premium and 114 Blue race gas. About a 60/40 mix of pump/race. It will idle and even put around fine on 93 due to the big cam bleeding off cylinder pressure, but I'm afraid to make a pass on just pump gas.
 

chevytaylor

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
4000rpm on the foot break seems like a lot of stall. A deep stage will hurt 60' and ET also.
A working tach would be a great help in giving you a base line to work from as far as launch, shift and trap RPMs are concerned.
Have you thought about a stage, shift light set up?

A lot of very talented and experienced people on here, I'm sure 100mph in the eithth isn't far away :beerbang
 

RatVega

New Member
Hi there...

I'm new here, so take this with however many grains of salt please you.

I'm guessing that the chassis is eating your 60' time. The comment about lifting the driver's side 8" is a big give-away. Even after tightening it up, you can't manage that kind of flex, only abide it. Your engine isn't that far off what I was running, and I'll give you points for a better cam; I was running a 12.5:1, .060 over 427 with a .600 flat tappet, closed chamber rect. port heads, a pair of 660 center-squirters on a tunnel ram and 2.125" Hooker headers with 3.5" collectors and extentions and SuperTrapps. I was running a 10" converter that would actually stall at 4,000 and 4.88s with a 32" tire. Along with about a 500 lb. weight advantage, I was running a very stiff tubular chassis (it's seen 1,000+ ft/lbs of torque and didn't flex) and shortened ladder bars. We ran 10.35s @ 130 mph with low-to-mid 1.40 sixty-footers As I recall, 1/8th times were like 6.50s @ 110. I usually shifted 7400-7600 rpm.

Things that I did to get there (beyond the obvious stuff) were:
Use a fairly soft front spring and add a travel stop to limit the travel to just after the front wheels started to lift. I used a 3/4" bolt through the top of the spring tower and a 1/4" plate for it to land on. You could just as easily use a cable stop, it just has to be adjustable. After that mod, I started really hitting the rear tires hard. The rest was doing the math from Chris Alston's Chassis book and getting the percent of rise right.

With 6.00/15 fronts and 16" wide rears, I had to change something because the Line-Lok just wasn't getting it. I increased the size of the front brake lines by 1/16" to get more front pressure and then turned the Line-Lok around so that I was locking out the rear brakes when I flipped the switch (I replaced the momentary with a toggle stitch) so I could get a decent burn-out and then hold it on the line by burying the brake pedal as I brought up the rpm. I usually left at about 3400 because the car would "bunny hop" and lift the rear tires if I left at stall. Yes, I have video...

I gave up early on timing curves and went to fixed timing at 40º-42º. In order to make starting a sane exercise (and to keep things safe when I was running the NOS Pro-Fogger) I installed a coil switch that I'd flip on after the engine had cranked a revolution or two. Saves on starters...

Think about this stuff while you get your tach fixed and get someone to shoot video of the car leaving. I would have killed for video when I was tuning my chassis. I kept a bit of a log book as I made changes, and (this was really hard) I made three launches with a setting change before I would change it again. It was tedious but I actually knew what the car was doing that way. In my first season I left the engine alone and took .71 seconds out of the chassis by the end of the summer.

If you can't/won't make major changes to the chassis (I understand this, it isn't just a freakin' Vega) then I strongly recommend you work on reinforcing the chassis and then throw more torque at it. 1.60s are achievable.

Good luck.
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
Thanks Carl, Brian, and RatVega. I had never thought about increasing the front brake line size to get some more holding power. I do have discs on the front (manual brakes) but I may have a drum brake (dual reservoir) master cylinder on it....that may be why it is pushing through the lights when I try to bring the stall up. I went back night before last (Thursday) and got to make 5 passes and had my girlfriend video them. I can tell that the car is moving and cutting on the timing system while I'm trying to bring the rpms up...then it's another split second before I'm off the brakes and launching. That was on the first 3 passes. The last 2 I tried just leaving from idle and flashing the convertor, but that didn't work at all. My best times were 1.74 in 60', 7.51 e.t. and 92 MPH. Still 4 MPH slower than it use to run with the same setup but a much tighter convertor and about 100 pounds heavier. I will have to figure out how to post the videos. It was transfering weight decently, but the tires stayed on the ground as far as I could tell. I think those 6 cyl springs are something I may need to look into. I had several friends/fellow racers tell me that my 60' wouldn't get much better without a transbrake, but that one would probably drop it down to the 1.50's. Guess I'll be saving up.
 

1961BelAir427

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
A couple pics taken with my phone Thursday night. I know it needs paint and body work bad, but I want it running like I want it before I do that....otherwise I'll just skin it all up again. These were from the local track, but it's hard to tell that with the backhoe in the background. Forgot to mention....this was my first car and I've owned it for nearly 21 years now. May not look pretty to alot of people, but I can say that I own my dream car.
 

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bubbletop1961

Well Known Member
If your pushing the car when you try to load up the convertor. Maybe this new converor isnt as loose as you think. Might be an issue right there. And what did it do from an idle. Ive heard people with good results doing it this way. But I can also see some tuning issues till you get it figured out.
 

Tony Salins

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
If that is your dream car than it doesn't matter what others think just what you feel. We know the feeling and think your car is beautiful!!! Keep on driving it, racing it and loving it. You ARE what it is all about.

Tony and Bonnie
 

walkerheaders

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 6
i'm getting on here late and without reading all the words.
POWER VALVES caught my eye. power valves on a drag car leave you guessing on the tune-up. you'll have NO CLUE where you are. I just went thru that frikkin nightmare on my 3500 lb impala.
i'm gonna stick my neck out and say, yank those valves and block the holes. then jet it up about 5 sizes. keep jetting it till it blubbers then back off 1 or 2. does your 950 carb have removable air bleeds? does it have an intermediate circuit? if it does, then richen the int system with a smaller air bleed. play with the bleeds on the high speed circuit as well.
launch the car from 2000 rpm with a 4500 converter. forget about spending $$$$on a trans brake.

i thought my car was good for only 10.40s and a 1.50 60' till i did all that i just said. most of what i gained was in the 1/8th i went 6.30 @ 107. 1/4 mile results? read my SIG.

i hope you have bigtime results as well.........BTW: nice car
 
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