Modern oils chewing up my motor?

bschulze

Well Known Member
We all have been reading a lot lately in the auto enthusiast magazines about modern oils chewing up cam lobes because of the elimination of metal additives. I checked with STP about it and received the following: (Any one have any other information?)

Reference Number: 5282832

Dear Mr. Schulze,


Thank you for contacting us about STP Oil Treatment. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.



The ingredient you are referring to is the zinc phosphorous compound called ZDDP. This is the anti-wear agent previously used in motor oils. Since our product is not a stand alone product like motor oil, it does still contain ZDDP. When you add the oil treatment to 4 to 5 quarts of oil, it will provide you with the same if not more protection than the older motor oils. I hope this information helps you.



Again, thank you for contacting us.


Sincerely,





Patti Copper


Consumer Response Representative


Consumer Services
 

Norm

Well Known Member
Shell Rotella

I have a '62 Belair 409/409 & use Shell Rotella in it. I called Shell engineers & they highly recommend it for "flat tappet" engines. The engineer I talked to was very thorough in his explanation. I would recommend anyone interested to call Shell.
 

DonSSDD

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
It seems like the oils are changing- that Hot Rod article was 2006? May not be accurate now? When did you talk with Shell? Some say it now does not have zinc in it, but if you spoke with Shell recently, that must not be true.

Don
 

GLM409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
This is tlimely since I've been wondering what oil I should be running in my 409/425 and hadn't run across this issue. I found a number of articles on the subject, some recommending adding GM EOS oil additive. I aldo found this recent article written by a Porche guy, but discusses the issue from both a Porche and classic high performance engine perspective. Doesn't tell me which oil to use, but does a good job explaining why modern engine oils are not the right oil for my 65 409. Guess I'm changing my oil today.

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html#Z5
 

Norm

Well Known Member
Oil

Talked with Shell about 2 months ago. Also figured if the diesel trucks lst for millions of miles, must be good oil.
 

petepedlar

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
The big truck diesel engine oil has also changed this year, so be careful.

Dave
 

bschulze

Well Known Member
More on modern oils.

Torque Talk





Newer Oils With Flat Tappet Engines






Motor oil is the lifeblood of an internal combustion engine, as few would argue. The thin oil wedge between moving parts makes the difference between a healthy engine and disaster. Engines with a flat tappet (non roller lifters) cam such as original Chevelle engines rely on anti-wear additives in oil to keep from destroying lifters and wiping out cam lobes. This is especially true in engines with higher than stock valve spring pressures. The contact point between lifters and cam is very small. Most modern engines manufactured since the late 80's have roller lifters and aren't as sensitive to the anti-wear ingredients in oil.
Problem is, due to API (American Petroleum Institute) findings, anti-wear additives in most oils have been steadily reduced and recently severely reduced again. The primary anti-wear ingredients are (were?) zinc (Zn) and phosphorus (P). Together they make up the anti-wear additive zinc dialkyl dithiosphosphate (ZDDP). But API says ZDDP and sulphated ash causes gradual degradation of catalytic converters and increased emissions, hence the new oil standards. New SM classed oils intended for cat converter equipped gas engine vehicles are to have no more than .08% or 800 ppm (parts per million) of the additives Zn and P. This would include, but not be limited to, all SM classed oils with the API "snowflake" symbol that says "certified for gasoline engines" on the container. Diesel oils (also works fine in gas engines) classed CJ-4 are to have no more than .1% P.
Until recently all you had to buy to be safe for your flat tappet engine was a heavy duty, racing, or diesel oil. Not any more. PLEASE REFER TO THE WEBSITE: www.lnengineering.com (as in LN) and if nothing else read the chart with test results of different oils and their additive amounts. Look at the amounts of the additives Zn and P in all those oils, the API classification (SL, SM, CI-4, CJ-4, etc.), and the TEST DATE. The LN text recommends a minimum of .12-.14% (1200-1400 ppm) Zn and P for flat tappet engines per a 1977 SAE journal paper on cam and lifter wear in test fleets as affected by engine oil ZDP concentration and type. Though diesel oils such as Shell Rotella T and Chevron Delo 400 15W40 still have higher amounts than most standard oils for gas engines, it has been reduced in the new CJ-4 classed versions. Fortunately the older CI-4 classed good diesel stuff is still being made if you can find it. Some hi-perf cam mfrs recommend it. Advance Auto Parts still has CI-4 Chevron Delo 400 15W40 (in late June). I stocked up.
You could buy expensive racing or synthetic oils but many of those don't have enough Zn and P. But note the Zn and P content of good old STP. GM EOS assembly lube is even higher in Zn and P. That's why it's recommended for break-in of flat tappet engines but isn't cheap and you have to get it at a GM dealer. It's also is very high in detergent which debatably can have a negative effect on the anti-wear additives.
Bottom line is, it's not enough to assume the oil you buy is going to be right for your flat tappet engine, even if it's a HD, racing, or diesel oil. Research your oil before buying. Some oils are now labeled "for off-road use only", which would tend to be better. For summer driving if you can't find CI-4 classed diesel oil (which per the mfr is also fine for gas engines), it looks like using newer CJ-4 classed Rotella T or Delo 400 15W40 AND adding 1 can of STP (red can) or 1 1/2 cans of STP blue can, or 1/2 can of GM EOS would provide sufficient Zn and P (Note: I can't locate any red can STP as of this writing). Or you can pay more for certain racing or synthetic oils, but the important thing is to research it first since some racing and synthetics don't have enough Zn and P. A wiped cam lobe and resultant damage and/or contamination from metal powder can get real expensive.

www.indianachevelles.com/newsletter/July07newsletter/page2.html
 

WSSmolick

Well Known Member
Wow. This thread really caught my attention. I assumed that motor oils vastly improved over the years, so using a modern oil should be more than suitable for our older engines. So it looks like the recommended oil is a CI-4 class, or a CJ-4 class with the addition of either STP or GM EOS? What viscosity should I be using? I assume this also applies to my '56 235 six as it is a flat tappet engine, as is also my '58 348.
 

bschulze

Well Known Member
More on modern oils

Update-Newer Oils

Torque Talk
by Von Cassidy
www.indianachevelles.com





This is an update to the Torque Talk article in the July/Aug '07 issue titled "Newer Oils". As the earlier article outlines, beginning January, 2007, most engine oil has to meet new API standards with lower amounts of zinc (Zn) and phosphorus (P) which are critical anti-wear ingredients required in engines with flat tappet (both hydraulic and solid non-roller) lifters. Most 90's and later engines have roller lifters and aren't as affected. Flat tappet engines with high-performance cams and higher than stock valve spring pressures are especially affected. The generally accepted minimum level of Zn and P for high performance flat tappet engines is .12%, or 1200 parts per million (ppm). The new API standards for SM (gas engine) rated oils are .08%, or 800 ppm Zn and P maximum. The new CJ-4 rated diesel oil maximum is .10% or 1000 ppm.
This topic has been the subject of much discussion on the Team Chevelle website. One member pursued the matter by corresponding with oil companies (usually without much cooperation) and finally went so far as to recently have some oil and additive samples tested by Blackstone Laboratory. The results are surprising and are listed below. Keep in mind the accepted minimum levels of P and Zn 1200 are ppm each.





* VALVOLINE NSL 20W-50 - (P) 842 PPM /(Zn) 973 PPM /(DETERGENT)950 PPM

* VALVOLINE VR1 20W-50 - 684 PPM/763 PPM/1630 PPM

* PENNZOIL GT 25W-50 - 1483 PPM/1676 PPM/1901 PPM

* GM EOS BLACK BOTTLE- 5059 PPM/5850 PPM/5,800 PPM

* AC DELCO EOS WHITE BOTTLE - 5183 PPM/6095 PPM/5,900 PPM

* STP 4CYL IN RED BOTTLE - 151 PPM/171 PPM/139 PPM (WAS 2115 PPM/3932 PPM IN 2005)





The biggest surprise is that STP red can has been effectively eliminated as a suitable Zn and P additive. It's probably safe to assume that STP blue can has been changed for the worse as well. It's comforting to see that GM EOS still contains very high levels of Zn and P and can be added to regular oils to substantially raise the Zn and P to acceptable levels. The other surprise is the Valvoline oils tested which are both racing oils. Neither cuts the mustard but the Pennzoil GT 20W50 does. That's a synthetic racing oil and is a little pricey.
The newer CJ-4 rated diesel oils still have an ALMOST acceptable level. Chevron Delo 400 15W40 in the good CI-4 rating is still available at Autozone and some other stores. Per tests it contains enough Zn and P. Another solution to attaining a minimum of 1200 ppm of Zn and P is to use the newer CJ-4 rated diesel oils with an appropriate amount of GM EOS Assembly Lube or other zinc-rich additive added. To calculate how much to add, refer to the chart at www.sterkel.org/avanti/documents/HowMuchAdditive.pdf. A stock Chevelle oil pan holds 4 quarts (both big and small block) plus one quart for the filter. Allowing approx 1/2 quart for additive, use 4.5 quarts for oil capacity. There are some other additives listed in another chart at that website. At this time the Team Chevelle member is having some more oils and additives tested. I'll report the results in a future issue. Meanwhile, don't roll the dice on newer oil. You could be sorry.
 

GLM409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Not sure who out there uses Amsoil products, but got this information back from them when I queried them about proper oil for my 65'409.

I've uploaded the text version of a pdf file they sent me. The .pdf version has a table which lists zinc content in ppm. Send me a message if you would like a copy of the .pdf file sent to you in an email.

GLM409

Dear Mr. GLM409,



Thank you for contacting AMSOIL.



In response to your inquiry, we would recommend our 10W-40 High Performance Motor Oil (product code AMO) for your 409 engine. Attached is a Technical Service Bulletin with specific information about zinc levels and flat tappet engines.



For your transmission we recommend our Manual Transmission and Transaxle Gear Lube (product code MTG) and for your differential we suggest our Severe Gear 75W-90 Gear Lube (product code SVG).



As always, please feel free to contact us again if we can be of further assistance.



Sincerely,



AMSOIL Technical Services
 

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oil4kids

Well Known Member
Joe Gibbs uses synthetic oils- http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/products/sgo.html


everyone on this site knows I always state Amsoil is one of our countrys better oils, been using it since 1986 in my BBC cars and just about everything else, started selling it in 1987 because I couldnt find it on the shelf anywhere

Although I think the best synthetic oil was HPS (high Performance Synthetics)sold in the mid 80s
I believe theres no better oil then Amsoil racing 20w50. But would not use it in the winter time

Bobby Unser used it in all his race cars regardless what oil company was sponsoring him- hes has now gone on the record about this

Amsoil 10w40 was the first API approved oil in 1972 which means the American Petroleum institute bowed down to Amsoil and gave them the API seal. Mobil 1 in 1975

Smokey Yunick however liked ALLMO synthetic in the mid 1960s

However I disagree with what they told you about your transmission oil

you need a Gl4 oil because Gl5 oils are too slippery for the Muncie and saganaw synchromesh, so with GL5 you will have shifting problems- it does not matter for the rear except you still need the posi additive


the synthetic grease in the Lunar rover back in 1969 cost about $2000 an ounce

if you want to know about synthetic oils type in "Dr Zorn and Germany and synthetic oil" in google- its been around since 1940s
 

starsailing1

 
Supporting Member 1
Oil

Went and picked up GM EOS bottle of additive at pontiac dealer $23. Went to Wal Mart and there sits Accel oil 10w-40 SF rating Listed only for car engines 1988 and older.
$1.24 qt.
 

WSSmolick

Well Known Member
Why do some of these desireable oils only come in a thick 20w50? It's like it's assumed classic cars aren't driven in the winter. I drive my cars at any time of the year, so it could be 30 degrees F or 95 degrees F and I'll drive them, provided the weather is ok and no salt on the road. I'm using either 10w40 or 15w40 oil. Is that about what I should be using?
 

GLM409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
The operating range for a 20w50 is -10 degrees F and up, so middle of winter in WI won't work, but it would in Coopersburg, PA. Amsoil 10w40 would work quite nicely though, but a bit pricey.
 

Norm

Well Known Member
Oil worries

All this chatter has me wondering if the Shell Rotella I'm running is still doing the job, so I just called Shell again.

Here is their answer: They say the zinc & phosphour level in the Rotella T is still near 1200 ppm as everyone says is a minimum level. Their oils for gasoline engines is considerably less. I feel better & I hope this may be useful info for y'all. I am using the 15w-40 Rotella T. Not making guarantees---just passing info....
 

WSSmolick

Well Known Member
'Near' meaning it's at least 1200 ppm or somewhere close to 1200 ppm? They might consider 900 to be near to 1200, but doesn't meet the min. I'd investigate that further. I think I'm going to locate an AMSOIL dealer near me.
 
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