Once owned a Z-11

B

Bob Easton

Member
Hi,
Just joined and posted this on the introduce yourself site.....then saw this thread....here's what I posted there:
Hi all,
Just found the site...nice. Found it while looking around for some confirming info on an engine I once owned and as I was telling a co-worker about the story. Short tale....bought a '63 Rayson Craft flat bottom in mid-70's with 4 other guys and we were told, and believed the motor was a 425 hp 409...sure looked it....which was fine. Once we fired it, two of us who knew engines knew it was a tad bit "stout" to be a stock 409 but didn't know anything about z-11's other than they only came in cars back in the day. Removed the motor to refurbish the boat and I called a buddy at the local Chevy dealer's parts dept. who told me "it can't be a QM suffix Bob.....they didn't make one...scrap off more grease and call me back". There wasn't any grease....immaculate motor. Mystery continued. A local machine shop owner, behind us in a resturant booth many days later overheard my talking about the engine and the QM mystery and dang near jumped out of his booth...long and short he came over to the garage we were working in and actually dropped to a knee when he saw the motor. Hooked me up with another local mechanic that had pitted for some of the old guys who raced these and he gave me all the lowdown on the motor. We stuck it back in the boat and took it to the lake....oh God did that thing run!
Anyway.....too long to tell the rest but if someone is interested in the story about what happened to it, let me know. Oh, and by the way....we paid $1500 for the boat and sold it for......$3000 with the motor! Then the story gets interesting.......I'll check in the site occassionally.....till then..........keep those 348's and 409's running folks....great motors and great cars. I miss 'em.
Bob
 
64ss409

64ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
First of all, Welcome!! Don't stay away too long,,,,,,,,,,,we want to hear the rest of the story.:D
 
B

Bob Easton

Member
64ss409 said:
First of all, Welcome!! Don't stay away too long,,,,,,,,,,,we want to hear the rest of the story.:D
Click to expand...

Ok.....here goes......I'll start with a couple of points during the disassembly of the boat when we first got it.

We towed it to my partner's home (we were all cops and all worked in the same unit at the Tucson PD) Herb had the biggest garage and so the work was done there. One of the first things we did after I spoke with my buddy at O'Reilly Chevrolet Parts and got nowhere with the engine info, was to call the Rayson Craft shop in Califoria. That was kind of cool -- I told the guy who answered a little and he interrupted me with "Let me get my boss"....and he came on the line.....turned out to be the owner, Rudy Ramos (I recall that was the name--think I'm right). Rudy hears me out, asks for the hull # and calls me back. He makes it even more interesting by telling me he remembers the boat and the owner "out of the mid-west someplace" and had a name (which we couldn't track down and I don't recall now). He says he recalls this fella ordering the boat and bringing the engine in. He was told it was a 'very special motor and not really a 409' but believed it to be one and just maybe built up a bit. Said to me "have ya had it in the water yet?" "ah, nope" "Well, when you do, don't let go of the steering wheel because she'll turn on you RIGHT NOW". Tells me to look under the hull at the two large skags and the angle they are set...."its a pylon racer"....made to go around and around a course. Ok, I'd never heard of that but hey.... Well it turned out when we did get in in the water, he was right on the money...you had to really steer it or it would vear quickly (to the left I believe I recall).
Now he's added to the mystery with the "very special motor thing". And then we ran into my machninist buddy who dropped into a reverent pose upon seeing it. The fella he referred me to was a Bill Nelson here in Tucson...still ownes a shop somewhere in town I heard a while back. He was apparently an official with the NHRA as well as a mechanic who had wrenched on the Z motors in his day. He was ton of help, giving me all the vitals (the 13 1/2 to 1 compression stat made me sit up!) and telling me in no uncertain terms "if you really DO have a Z-11, you have a collector item and one of only a hand full that are still around--take care of it."
We put the boat back together after paint & uphostery and took it up to the lakes to test it out. Had two chrome 15 gallon rectangular gas tanks on either side in the hull next to the motor, drive unit was a straight in and out box, cavitation plate and a prop mid-hull with the exhaust exiting out the back of the transom. I can tell you this--I don't know how fast it really was, but I'd say when I got both carbs opened up (on that very odd, through us for a loop slanted intake!!???) and the cavitation plate pulled, she had only about 5-6" of the tail of that 16' hull in the water and the wind distorted your face! True story.....buddy came by the campground next day bragging about riding in the "fastest boat" he'd ever, ever been in -- brand new outboard -- I'm thinking it was the dawn of the Black Max Merc's then. Anyway, in the boat I take him--fire it up, him sitting on the bench seat next to me (it only held 2 somewhat comfortably) and nailed it. About 10 seconds later, as he clung to the underside of the dash in front of him, he started screaming "SHUT IT DOWN, SHUT IT DOWN!!!!!!!!! I WANT OUT!". Fun! Took him back and he said "that damn thing is dangerous and scary fast! You guys are NUTS!"

Well, we realized a couple things quickly in the next couple weeks.....first, you go through those 32 gallons of gas RIGHT NOW!!! Man that was a thirsty motor! And second, one of the partner-owners was not as bright as I would have given him credit for up to then. He was tasked with getting it insured. Do you know what your insurance agent tells you when you tell him you have a 16' flatbottom boat with a 427 / 430 horse motor in it? "It is a racing boat and I will not cover it, call someone else".

Anyway...sorry, I'm babbling on when the best (or I believe all of you will agree, the WORST part) of the story is to come.

We kept it for the summer, uninsured and then the 5 of us realized it wasn't really a family kind of boat--we all had little kids and since only two people could ride in it, it became a nice toy, but an expensive one. So the decision was made to sell it. Dave H. & I, the two motor heads in the bunch, wanted to pull the Z and replace it with something else...anything else....and sell the motor in Hemmings or somewhere like that. We were convinced it would be worth more than the boat. The others voted us down, 3-2 and we sold the boat to a fellow for $3000....with that motor. And we told him what it was--he didn't seem at all interested in details.
That was I believe about 1975. Fast forward to about 1977 and I get a call at our office at work. Fella on the other end introduces himself as Joe Skinner and he asks "do you own a boat with a Z-11?" "Ah, nope, not anymore Mr. Skinner.....why?" He tells me he just loves those motors that it being in a boat 'intrigues' him. I tell him who I sold it to and wish him luck with the chance to own it.
Now fast forward again to 1981. I'm a Sgt. on the west side of the city, working nights and respond to a shooting at a motel. Seems some fella tried to hold up two guys heading out on a hunting trip who'd stopped at the Denny's next to I-10. And in the tussle one of the victims gets shot -- not too seriously. I arrive on scene to realize it's a guy I used to work for before my police work (that was wierd). His buddy, once we get to St. Mary's hospital says, after staring at my name tag, "did you ever own a boat with a Z-11?" I do a double take and realize this is the guy that called me that night a few years prior looking for the boat. I tell him yup, that's me..."Did you ever find it?"

His answer will haunt me till I die. He said yes, the guy still owned it that had bought it from me and after a lot of negotiating he agreed to sell the engine to Mr. Skinner for the cost of replacing it with a freshly built 409....no kidding. That alone hurt...but it got much worse. Skinner says to me, after I ask, "what did you do with it?", "you better sit down Sarge. I pulled it, and I was able to find the original '63 aluminum front end car it was originally made for in Texas. Sold it to the guy for.......(now remember this was '81).....$8500.00." I'm still sick.
So, as my buddy today at work said when we were reminising about this and I was all down faced with the memory of losing that motor, "hey at least you actually owned and kind of drove one!! How many folks get that experience!!!???" He's right.....but ohhhh, it still hurts.
That's my story.........and I'm stickin' to it. :) Hope I didn't bore you too much. Good night.
Bob
 
jim_ss409

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
Great story!:beer

Bob Easton said:
I pulled it, and I was able to find the original '63 aluminum front end car it was originally made for in Texas. Sold it to the guy for.......(now remember this was '81).....$8500.00."
Click to expand...

It's nice to see that the engine went to a good home.
 
B

Bob Easton

Member
BSL409 said:
Cool Story,:pop
Wish you had some photos of that boat&Z11
Click to expand...

I think I do..........a sad circumstance of a divorce several years back keeps me from most of the family photos but I believe I have a couple of the boat in amongst my stuff. I'll look for them this weekend and figure out how to post them. Thanks guys for allowing me to babble on.
Bob
 
P

Phil Reed

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 10
Hang on.....................it might get better!!!! We have a member here ....Barry Taylor...............his dad had a 63 Z-11!~!!!!!!!! Dick Harrell came from New Mexico and thats not too far away either!!!
 
region rat

region rat

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 3
BOB. About the same time you sold the boat I got a line on a guy in Oregon that wanted to sell a Z-11 motor that was in a boat. Naturally the block had been decked and I was really chasing it until a friend told me it was for sale several times and each time the seller backed out and kept raising the price. It was offered to me for about $3200. Bob
 
B

Bob Easton

Member
Phil Reed said:
Hang on.....................it might get better!!!! We have a member here ....Barry Taylor...............his dad had a 63 Z-11!~!!!!!!!! Dick Harrell came from New Mexico and thats not too far away either!!!
Click to expand...

Hey, you may have something there.....I really can't say for absolute certain this was a Texas sale, but I recall it that way...Could have been Dick? I've always wished I'd asked (or remembered!) who exactly he sold it to. I'd like to know, just because.....and wonder if it's still out there and where. Kind of like an old friend who disappeared.
Bob
 
B

Bob Easton

Member
region rat said:
BOB. About the same time you sold the boat I got a line on a guy in Oregon that wanted to sell a Z-11 motor that was in a boat. Naturally the block had been decked and I was really chasing it until a friend told me it was for sale several times and each time the seller backed out and kept raising the price. It was offered to me for about $3200. Bob
Click to expand...

I'll tell you......Old Joe Skinner was a true wheeler dealer--he owned a junk yard or two, ran for several political offices (that ought to tell you something in and of itself!) and just came off as, well, someone who would do just what you are describing. As I said in another posting above, I'd really like to know who wound up with it--like an old good buddy that kind of disappeared on me.
Bob
 
B

Bob Easton

Member
All,
I forgot to mention a funny story about it......It would have been the end of the last summer we owned it and after the last lake trip I towed it home to do the clean-up & prep for sale. Those would be the pic's I have if I can find them....but I backed it out to the edge of the driveway--I lived in the 2nd house in on a cul de sac in a classic neighborhood. Immediately across the main street--if you went straight from our street you'd run into his living room--live a good friend who was a major gear-head. Ross worked for Holley as a rebuild tech and for I believe Edelbrock for a spell...he was working for our local gas & electric as a manager. Here it is Sat. morning around 9 and I figured everybody was up so firing this up wouldn't be an issue--damn loud to be sure, but no biggie--the exhaust exited the transom via some hard rubber flaps.
Fire it up I did, rev it a couple of times and ........Ross, who unbeknownst to me was working the midnight shift and had only been asleep about 2 hours, comes flying out his front door in only his underpants, all the way to the curb's edge and shouts over the noise of the Z idling "$)*&$)!!!)$$@!~~ what the $$#)$)!#!#$$%% IS THAT!????" With a grin as big as any I ever saw he casually walks over to me--totally forgeting he is in his skivvies only--until Jackie, his wife yells at him that is!!!! I still laugh about that and until he passed away several years ago and way, way prematurely, we both got a chuckle re-living that moment.
Bob
 
jim_ss409

jim_ss409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
Hey Bob, in case you didn't see it, here's a link that gives you some idea of the value of a Z11 engine.:deal
 
Blk61409

Blk61409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
Bob Easton said:
Hmmmm, maybe it's me, but I don't see where to click for the link....???
Bob
Click to expand...
On the thought that Dick Harrell or Buddy Taylors car might have been the one the guy found to put the Z11 engine back into would not have worked. I had both front ends back then off of those cars. One came off of Dicks car and it had been pretty damaged in an accident, my buddy that crashed Dicks car bought the front end off of Buddy's car and ran it a while. My friend sold the car to another friend($1500) he ran it for a few years, pulled the aluminum off and scrapped the body. He called me after he scrapped the body, I tried to retrieve it but never found the body. Barry can weigh in here but I believe a steel front end was put on it and a small block put in and sold on a used car lot, maybe Buddy's lot or Dan Deans. Sometime in about 1983-4 or so I sold the aluminum pieces to Doug Hughes and I think Dyno Don ended up with it. Just some info to add a little more mystery of the missing Z11 engine. Pat
 
B

Bob Easton

Member
Blk61409 said:
On the thought that Dick Harrell or Buddy Taylors car might have been the one the guy found to put the Z11 engine back into would not have worked. I had both front ends back then off of those cars. One came off of Dicks car and it had been pretty damaged in an accident, my buddy that crashed Dicks car bought the front end off of Buddy's car and ran it a while. My friend sold the car to another friend($1500) he ran it for a few years, pulled the aluminum off and scrapped the body. He called me after he scrapped the body, I tried to retrieve it but never found the body. Barry can weigh in here but I believe a steel front end was put on it and a small block put in and sold on a used car lot, maybe Buddy's lot or Dan Deans. Sometime in about 1983-4 or so I sold the aluminum pieces to Doug Hughes and I think Dyno Don ended up with it. Just some info to add a little more mystery of the missing Z11 engine. Pat
Click to expand...

I wish I had more to add, but really don't recall any more specifics--actually I really don't believe I've forgotten any--it was just too shallow a conversation back then, centered on the eventual value over what we had sold the whole boat for. That said, now I really wish I'd dug more into it then. I don't know if Skinner is still around, he was about 10 years older than I am (I'm 62 tomorrow) but I'll see if I can find him.
I dug the place apart yesterday, looking at all the places I may have put those photo's and could not find them. There were only a couple of the boat showing the motor as I recall, both shot from about 20 feet back (with an instamatic!) to get the whole boat in the picture. I can see one in my minds eye--it was a side shot of the boat in the carport with my kids in it--both were very small, Nikki about 2 and Steve about 5-6. I recall having that stat sheet Bill Nelson provided me, listing all the specifics of the motor, but that went to the guy who bought the boat.
In any event, a '62 409 is on my list of cars to own someday....certainly not a 63 z-11, a bit too much of a dream I think and not what you'd call a "driver", true!? I've got a '55 chevy 210 in a trailer, in pieces that needs to be FINALLY completed--I'm embarrased to say, but I've had it since 1980! Too many car projects for my kids and many, many other time priorities and decisions about any small amounts of my $$$$ left over after paying for necessesities. But I'll be completely retiring in almost exactly 2 years and that project will be a priority. Once done, and driven for a year or so, I'll then be looking at selling/trading to latch onto a '62.....always wanted one, might just happen.
Bob
 
Ronnie Russell

Ronnie Russell

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 2
Pat, I can supply a little info on the Buddy Taylor car. 1966 I worked at a parts store in NE Dallas. A buddy of mine drove the car to the parts house to buy parts. His name is Mike Lockett. I had e-mail communication with Mike today. I remember seeing the aluminum front end on the car but wanted confirmation from Mike so as not to rely on my own memory. What I remembered is correct. Mike bought the car ( actually a trade ) from Johnny Sharber. At that time the car had 327 and 4 sp. I'm sure Johnny bought the car from Buddy but Johnny can't be reached. Mike could not recall who he sold it to or at what date. Mike hasn't owned any special interest cars in over 40 years. He has focused on other things in his lifetime and had no interest in cars. Funny how life is, when I think of Mike Lockett, I think of him as a car guy which he is not. So, I don't know when you acquired the front end but it definetly had been through at least two other owners beside Buddy Taylor and still had the aluminum front end on it. Lockett did say he was sure he had one picture of the car and would try to dig around and find it.
 
Blk61409

Blk61409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
Ronnie Russell said:
Pat, I can supply a little info on the Buddy Taylor car. 1966 I worked at a parts store in NE Dallas. A buddy of mine drove the car to the parts house to buy parts. His name is Mike Lockett. I had e-mail communication with Mike today. I remember seeing the aluminum front end on the car but wanted confirmation from Mike so as not to rely on my own memory. What I remembered is correct. Mike bought the car ( actually a trade ) from Johnny Sharber. At that time the car had 327 and 4 sp. I'm sure Johnny bought the car from Buddy but Johnny can't be reached. Mike could not recall who he sold it to or at what date. Mike hasn't owned any special interest cars in over 40 years. He has focused on other things in his lifetime and had no interest in cars. Funny how life is, when I think of Mike Lockett, I think of him as a car guy which he is not. So, I don't know when you acquired the front end but it definetly had been through at least two other owners beside Buddy Taylor and still had the aluminum front end on it. Lockett did say he was sure he had one picture of the car and would try to dig around and find it.
Click to expand...
 
Blk61409

Blk61409

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 9
Ronnie, great info. To add a little more to the story on Buddy's car, a guy I knew in the 60's bought the front end and all the aluminum off of the car when it had the 327 and 4 speed. I think it was for sale at a used car store in Dallas or Garland. He had a 63 Impala and for the life of me I never understood why he did not just buy the Z11 car, but he just stripped the aluminum off replacing it with steel and was building a car with a 427 Z11 engine. Anyway, he never could get it to run right and got tired of the car. Along comes Lloyd Barrow who had bought Dickies car from either Don Hardy or Teal and Therwanger. Lloyd raced the car and ended up crashing into the old lone tree at the end of Kennedale dragstrip. I never liked that strip, maybe it had to do with dodging that tree or something like that. Lloyd knows this other guy has given up on his efforts and talked him into selling the aluminum stuff to Lloyd. Lloyd raced for another year or two, got tired of it and sold it to Gene Brown, Gene and I had been friends for years, he eventually got the car into the mid-10's. He got tired of it and instead of selling it, stripped it, I got all of the aluminum parts both Dickies and Buddy's and Dug Hughes got all of it from me in the mid 80's. Doug I think sold it to Don Nicholson and it's still on that car today.
In the meantime I have the fenders and hood off of the old Mothers Worry car and just finished restoring them.
So, it looks like Buddys front end has gone through 9 owners that I can count!!!
If any one else has more info feel free to join in the frey.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top