M
MK IISS
Guest
It's too bad the screen door isn't allowed. This would be an appropiate time.
Pontiac Thread,,, post away !!
- Thread starter dq409
- Start date
Come on Dave, quit sugar coating it, tell us how you really feel about us! :evil
Firepower354
Well Known Member
My first Pontiac moment was in the fall of '65 when I went to the drive-in with dad and home with mom. His 65 GTO had beat her 66 SS396 Chevelle in a stoplight drag and well, love takes mysterious forms...
287 cubes at the '55 onset growing to 455 and beyond can't help but be a little short of breath. (I'm really not the only one repeating himself) All the other GM V8's DID get a "clean sheet of paper major redesign" in the 60's! 425 Nailheads(talk about a bad exhaust port!), 394 Olds, 425 Cad, the W (sorry!) all gave way to newer versions with more performance potential. The Pontiac does fare well compared to its peers. The aftermarket may not have done it right according to some, but those 4.62 bore centers don't help. How "clean sheet" can you do an engine and still call it "real"??? Are T/F guys really using anything resembling a 426H? Nascar SBC changed the port layout, Mopar followed. Deck heights dropped, mains shrunk, Honda rod journals for criminy! Still "real" ? Is Greg Andersons car a Pontiac? The valve covers say so. Donovan 417s really 392's?
After reviewing all my early 60's collection, it seems that some dude named Mickey Thompson did get down the track pretty well with some of those dung heaps. The Royal Pontiac guys did ok too. Sorry but since I wasn't there, I have to use reference material that despite faded pages and a few missing covers, still have a reasonably unbiased opinion.
The only carryover to Chevy appears to be the absurd rocker stud and arm system. Smokey hated it, Zora was appalled.
No, a screen door won't do. Maybe something thicker, with a deadbolt?
287 cubes at the '55 onset growing to 455 and beyond can't help but be a little short of breath. (I'm really not the only one repeating himself) All the other GM V8's DID get a "clean sheet of paper major redesign" in the 60's! 425 Nailheads(talk about a bad exhaust port!), 394 Olds, 425 Cad, the W (sorry!) all gave way to newer versions with more performance potential. The Pontiac does fare well compared to its peers. The aftermarket may not have done it right according to some, but those 4.62 bore centers don't help. How "clean sheet" can you do an engine and still call it "real"??? Are T/F guys really using anything resembling a 426H? Nascar SBC changed the port layout, Mopar followed. Deck heights dropped, mains shrunk, Honda rod journals for criminy! Still "real" ? Is Greg Andersons car a Pontiac? The valve covers say so. Donovan 417s really 392's?
After reviewing all my early 60's collection, it seems that some dude named Mickey Thompson did get down the track pretty well with some of those dung heaps. The Royal Pontiac guys did ok too. Sorry but since I wasn't there, I have to use reference material that despite faded pages and a few missing covers, still have a reasonably unbiased opinion.
The only carryover to Chevy appears to be the absurd rocker stud and arm system. Smokey hated it, Zora was appalled.
No, a screen door won't do. Maybe something thicker, with a deadbolt?
Walkerheaders..PLEASE post a pic of that trim tag if you don't mind...I remember seeing a Skylark/Camino many moons ago...couldn't figure that one out either.
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
Dave, I never said Pontiacs were the perfect design and no body ever said Buicks weren't good strong torque motor either. I believe in that article they used a TA performance aluminum head, that flows way better than the E head(the only one out at the time).They used a TA intake that is closer to a Victor in height and design, didn't use a better intake on the Pontiac for what ever reason, and it was available at that time. So apples and oranges. They also seemed to use Fulper for engine advice who in the real world doesn't have the best rep. Where was the W motor in it? That test was about 10 years ago also. If you believe Hot Rod, Car craft or who ever would pass a scientific peer review for accuracy that is standard in any other field especially engineering- I have some swamp land I can sell you! I guess you missed the article that out of the box E heads and a new cam made 100hp over factory heads on a tired 455 short block, showing how poorly they perform.
That terrible designed new Pontiac block even in it WEAKER aluminum version has held up to over 2300hp for the Butlers twin turbo'd EFI Pro Mod motor. I guess that weak block with terrible windage issues is a loser! Who needs cross drill mains if it can hold that HP??? But then Marty Palybikins with factory D ports and twin turbos and a STOCK block put out over 1000hp running in the 8s. Pretty weak stuff Dave.
Let's see talking about exhaust ports-what's the first thing a Chevy header does turns the exhaust flow in a different angle, Pontiac port has that built in it. My RAIV heads flow 85% of the intake flow, and they flow with a 690 head on the intake, pretty poor design alright.
You didn't answer the question SS425 asked -what about the W motors here we all love-piston as heavy as a brick 2 bolt mains with small bolts. Chamber in the block sure doesn't have a better design than the Pontiacs you are hammering on, probably alot less effecient for swirl and tumble. They are unique you can't just buy a factory crate motor like them with 572 HP. W s have a cool valve cover and sound. They are few and far between and why they are cool.They are far from a perfect design. I'll keep my Ws too!
Bring your best 455 sized motor that runs on pump gas(at the Chevron!) with a 239 @ 0.050 flat tappet hydraulic cam, a crummy Torker II intake(no VIctor types, no Dominators), through mufflers and tailpipes in a 3700 lb car(no light rods, I'll spot you 50-100lbs! ) and we'll run heads up after driving to the track! Oh you can change to 9" slicks if you want. It can be a W , BBC , BBF. I'll expect a totally redesigned block that will take custom oil pans, intake, exhaust and have cross bolted mains since that is what you expect form a good motor. Oh gosh the DART and BowTie racing blocks don't have cross bolted mains what a design flop I guess all the Comp racers need to be notified, or even the NASCAR SB2, so I guess the only smart engineers are the Ford side oiler guys.
What motor is your perfect motor Dave let us know, can't be a Pontiac, must not be a W, fill us in! let's see the rectangle port BBC head is too big poor velocity-I guess why they do so poorly in B/SA on a small 396, and the chamber is so well design they need how much timing? as I said we can pcik apart the design of every motor out there.
That terrible designed new Pontiac block even in it WEAKER aluminum version has held up to over 2300hp for the Butlers twin turbo'd EFI Pro Mod motor. I guess that weak block with terrible windage issues is a loser! Who needs cross drill mains if it can hold that HP??? But then Marty Palybikins with factory D ports and twin turbos and a STOCK block put out over 1000hp running in the 8s. Pretty weak stuff Dave.
Let's see talking about exhaust ports-what's the first thing a Chevy header does turns the exhaust flow in a different angle, Pontiac port has that built in it. My RAIV heads flow 85% of the intake flow, and they flow with a 690 head on the intake, pretty poor design alright.
You didn't answer the question SS425 asked -what about the W motors here we all love-piston as heavy as a brick 2 bolt mains with small bolts. Chamber in the block sure doesn't have a better design than the Pontiacs you are hammering on, probably alot less effecient for swirl and tumble. They are unique you can't just buy a factory crate motor like them with 572 HP. W s have a cool valve cover and sound. They are few and far between and why they are cool.They are far from a perfect design. I'll keep my Ws too!
Bring your best 455 sized motor that runs on pump gas(at the Chevron!) with a 239 @ 0.050 flat tappet hydraulic cam, a crummy Torker II intake(no VIctor types, no Dominators), through mufflers and tailpipes in a 3700 lb car(no light rods, I'll spot you 50-100lbs! ) and we'll run heads up after driving to the track! Oh you can change to 9" slicks if you want. It can be a W , BBC , BBF. I'll expect a totally redesigned block that will take custom oil pans, intake, exhaust and have cross bolted mains since that is what you expect form a good motor. Oh gosh the DART and BowTie racing blocks don't have cross bolted mains what a design flop I guess all the Comp racers need to be notified, or even the NASCAR SB2, so I guess the only smart engineers are the Ford side oiler guys.
What motor is your perfect motor Dave let us know, can't be a Pontiac, must not be a W, fill us in! let's see the rectangle port BBC head is too big poor velocity-I guess why they do so poorly in B/SA on a small 396, and the chamber is so well design they need how much timing? as I said we can pcik apart the design of every motor out there.
IgnitionMan
Banned
Oh...wait...I remember now....there WAS a "Pontiac Race Engine".
Oh..what WAS it called?....uh...errrr, was it the Pontiac Big Chief?? Close to the Olds DRCE...why, YES, it was called the Big Chief.
Special CHEVROLET BIG BLOCK RACING heads with different rocker covers with "Oldsmobile" and "Pontiac" on them, patterned after the Big Block Chevrolet engines used in competition, bolted to a CHEVROLET BOTTOM END, with "Pontiac" rocker covers...that was it.
YUP, A "REAL" PONTIAC RACE ENGINE.
Oh..what WAS it called?....uh...errrr, was it the Pontiac Big Chief?? Close to the Olds DRCE...why, YES, it was called the Big Chief.
Special CHEVROLET BIG BLOCK RACING heads with different rocker covers with "Oldsmobile" and "Pontiac" on them, patterned after the Big Block Chevrolet engines used in competition, bolted to a CHEVROLET BOTTOM END, with "Pontiac" rocker covers...that was it.
YUP, A "REAL" PONTIAC RACE ENGINE.
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
But that one didn;t have cross drilled mains either so you blew your own definition. There ere also "Pontiac" SBC heads as well as "Buick" SBC heads for racing, you forgot those.
Do the math 122mph auto car 3750 lbs with a stock block, small flat tappet hydraulic,crummy E heads, Torker II 850 and mufflers. Almost the same combo as that Hot Rod article .
Do the math 122mph auto car 3750 lbs with a stock block, small flat tappet hydraulic,crummy E heads, Torker II 850 and mufflers. Almost the same combo as that Hot Rod article .
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
There is a guy on the Performance Years board from Austrailia that has a class racing boat Pontiac powered. They race them on rivers, looks pretty wild as they are small boats. Another that is building new Tri Y headers and has a Pontiac powered Jet boat, I think he may even have some of the RAV heads for a motor.
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
Here ya go Dave, one of the biggest BBC aftermarket blocks-where's the cross drill mains??
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/05_cat_pg8.pdf
There are all kinds of parameters when building a motor too look at,shoot even some of the builders argue over which is better big bore, short stroke, small bore long stroke there was eve a recent dyno magazine article on that. Alot depends on the rpm range you are shooting for and making a complete package(heads, intake, cam, convertor,gears to go with it. Set up for low rpm torque, or high rpm hp.
Pontiac engineers started with a 50s design and modified it be low rpm torque motors to push big tuna boats like Catalinas around town, long rods(0.5" longer than BBC),big stroke, small volume runner heads all build low rpm torque at the expense of high rpm hp needed for a race motor. But using that plan and optimizing all the parts for that you can still go fast.
A stroker W motor is also head limited, eventhough it has a big bore, so planning all the components around the rpm range is the ticket.
www.N2performance.com can help with some formulas for exhaust size, intake size for specific rpm ranges to shoot for in an ideal motor.
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/05_cat_pg8.pdf
There are all kinds of parameters when building a motor too look at,shoot even some of the builders argue over which is better big bore, short stroke, small bore long stroke there was eve a recent dyno magazine article on that. Alot depends on the rpm range you are shooting for and making a complete package(heads, intake, cam, convertor,gears to go with it. Set up for low rpm torque, or high rpm hp.
Pontiac engineers started with a 50s design and modified it be low rpm torque motors to push big tuna boats like Catalinas around town, long rods(0.5" longer than BBC),big stroke, small volume runner heads all build low rpm torque at the expense of high rpm hp needed for a race motor. But using that plan and optimizing all the parts for that you can still go fast.
A stroker W motor is also head limited, eventhough it has a big bore, so planning all the components around the rpm range is the ticket.
www.N2performance.com can help with some formulas for exhaust size, intake size for specific rpm ranges to shoot for in an ideal motor.
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
Here's an article on the Butler twin turbo Pontiac motor using the poor Edelbrock heads and weak aluminum block, I was a little low on the HP. it shows some of the high end Pontiac race motor stuff.
http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/0410pon_butler/
http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/0410pon_butler/
Skip FIx
Well Known Member
DQ I'll drop it on my end. We'll get back to design thoughts and what we like about the cars.
I think the design parameters of each engine and working within them like the article in N2performance discussions works for all makes. We can learn for all makes and take some that to our own favorite engine and make it as good as we can within its own parameters. Chevy, Pontiac, Ford, Honda. That's where reading break downs of all the Engine Masters can give you good ideas.
W motors plus points big bore helps unshroud valves, big valves in head(comaored to other 400ci range motors) decent flowing heads for 400 ci range, short stroke -less stress at rpm on parts. Down side the chamber in the block requires a big dome making the pistons heavier. Using as light a piston as we can, a longer light H beam rod can help do that somewhat, lighter pins can reduce some of the stresses. To get real radical have the heads use 11/32 guides instead of 3/8 for some lighter valves, longer valves to use a taller spring so bigger lift without coil bind. The new bee hive springs form Comp can help reduce valvewtrain mass also.Cam choice-new hydraulic rollers can give us more aggressive cam profiles to have more "area under the curve". Also higher ratio rockers can do that, Ws already have 1.75s but there are 1.8 BBC available. To get a little more radical using a solid roller cam for even more aggessive lobes. Many manufacturers have pretty good street solid roller selections. You often have to use a composite or bronze distrbutor gear with these.Want to run a big solid , use some of the direct lube lifters with a hole to keep cam lubed to prevent excess wear.
Then coating the bearings with DFL, as well as piston skirts. Pistons tops can get a thermal barrier coating to heat contain heat in the combustion chamber and we've use about as much new tech stuff as we can. My W will have all that stuff. until we make the jump to EFI and tuning with a laptop vs carb jets and rods(AFBs).
When Rich comes out with his heads we can feed those stroker Ws too.
I think the design parameters of each engine and working within them like the article in N2performance discussions works for all makes. We can learn for all makes and take some that to our own favorite engine and make it as good as we can within its own parameters. Chevy, Pontiac, Ford, Honda. That's where reading break downs of all the Engine Masters can give you good ideas.
W motors plus points big bore helps unshroud valves, big valves in head(comaored to other 400ci range motors) decent flowing heads for 400 ci range, short stroke -less stress at rpm on parts. Down side the chamber in the block requires a big dome making the pistons heavier. Using as light a piston as we can, a longer light H beam rod can help do that somewhat, lighter pins can reduce some of the stresses. To get real radical have the heads use 11/32 guides instead of 3/8 for some lighter valves, longer valves to use a taller spring so bigger lift without coil bind. The new bee hive springs form Comp can help reduce valvewtrain mass also.Cam choice-new hydraulic rollers can give us more aggressive cam profiles to have more "area under the curve". Also higher ratio rockers can do that, Ws already have 1.75s but there are 1.8 BBC available. To get a little more radical using a solid roller cam for even more aggessive lobes. Many manufacturers have pretty good street solid roller selections. You often have to use a composite or bronze distrbutor gear with these.Want to run a big solid , use some of the direct lube lifters with a hole to keep cam lubed to prevent excess wear.
Then coating the bearings with DFL, as well as piston skirts. Pistons tops can get a thermal barrier coating to heat contain heat in the combustion chamber and we've use about as much new tech stuff as we can. My W will have all that stuff. until we make the jump to EFI and tuning with a laptop vs carb jets and rods(AFBs).
When Rich comes out with his heads we can feed those stroker Ws too.
don't stop now
I just read all this crap
How come no one is bashing the 409?
I get beet up all the time for having them. They are just as crappy design as any of the engines mention so far.:eek: If they were so great the would still be making them. Look at the junk heads and intake.... oh wait ... thats why some is FIXING them!
Guess what, EVERY one has an idea how to do it! If you don't like the way it is done GO DO IT YOURSELF
Buick - if you have ever seen one run, you know they can run like stinck
My brothers run LOW 12 with STOCK block, crank, rods, pistons (cast), water pump, pan, distributor, quadrajet, damper, oil pump,...Home ported heads WITHOUT a flow bench. After market intake, cam, headers. 78 Regal with ALL the goodies, Through a 7.5 rear:eek: . Race car.. no... fun - yes. One other thing 8.0 CR.
Pontiac - done know much. I got 3 buddies that do (maybe) 2 Machanical Enginers and a machinest. One fella HIS CAR RUNS!!! HOLLY CRAP Never been on the track though. Machinest runs his on the round track, pulls awawy from everyone one the straights and can get around the turn
There is NOTHING in this world of engines that is perfect the way it is. If so why would there be need for improvment, testing, and new products.
409 will always be truck engines, Buick - fansy, Pontiac - weak, Ford - poor heads, Chrysler - hemi, small Chevy - easy, cheap, Big Chevy - fast
It al boils down to how much money you got, how fast you want to go, what do you want to do with it. That is what I ask my costomers.
I just read all this crap
How come no one is bashing the 409? I get beet up all the time for having them. They are just as crappy design as any of the engines mention so far.:eek: If they were so great the would still be making them. Look at the junk heads and intake.... oh wait ... thats why some is FIXING them! Guess what, EVERY one has an idea how to do it! If you don't like the way it is done GO DO IT YOURSELF Buick - if you have ever seen one run, you know they can run like stinck
My brothers run LOW 12 with STOCK block, crank, rods, pistons (cast), water pump, pan, distributor, quadrajet, damper, oil pump,...Home ported heads WITHOUT a flow bench. After market intake, cam, headers. 78 Regal with ALL the goodies, Through a 7.5 rear:eek: . Race car.. no... fun - yes. One other thing 8.0 CR.Pontiac - done know much. I got 3 buddies that do (maybe) 2 Machanical Enginers and a machinest. One fella HIS CAR RUNS!!! HOLLY CRAP
Never been on the track though. Machinest runs his on the round track, pulls awawy from everyone one the straights and can get around the turn There is NOTHING in this world of engines that is perfect the way it is. If so why would there be need for improvment, testing, and new products.
409 will always be truck engines, Buick - fansy, Pontiac - weak, Ford - poor heads, Chrysler - hemi, small Chevy - easy, cheap, Big Chevy - fast
It al boils down to how much money you got, how fast you want to go, what do you want to do with it. That is what I ask my costomers.
Firepower354
Well Known Member
dq409 said:Firepower,,, You really didn`t say that did you??:takethat
I`ll show you my dirt bag !!! All 130 cubic inchs of it !!!
Sucksuki,,,,,, just kidding,,,,
Sorry DQ, just spreading a little of the fun around. Strangely, you're not the first guy to hit me with a stick for that comment. I've done several Harley Fergusons(JUST CAN"T QUIT
) over the years and had a lot of fun doing it. I was even at Batten when we did a 120 inch DOHC injected "Harley" fueler. Man, would that thing go. I'm working up the parts for a 50's bobber flathead or knuck' to go with my 392 A-bone. I wanna do an XR750 style street tracker with a BIG sporty bottom and two front heads too. Scott Parker had a real one out on the ice a couple winters ago at the local pond. Smoked my 750 Shell/Trackmaster Yam bad! Even without the several time national champ aboard......My first corner on my step-dads Superglide rammed both pipes in to the ground, levered enough weight off the rear tire to slide it out about a foot, made me realize it's a different game all together. I now enjoy the torquey push of a big twin for a zip to the pub, but for late night street warfare, the big guns come out. The 'zuke will make 140hp or so and idle erratic, once I pull a plug wire off... This is my new "tame" one.