Spark Plug ????

[SS425HP]

advance

You are adding more mechanical advance, and blocking off the vacuum advance. There will be NO vacuum advance. Try it this way, and see if it works. Then we can add the vacuum back in and get it adjusted right. I also think the PCV is hurting you. You have a breather with the road draft tube. You only need one. Get rid of the PCV and block the port on the carb. This will eliminate any intake vacuum leak. We are trying to get back to basics, and then work from there.

 

[Dond409]

My turn

Let me throw this into the mix. I beleive that the light springs on the mechanical advance are indeed too light. Remember he has a 3.08 in this car. if you recall our friend in Florida did an extensive test on tuning his 55 chevy He said his car pinged on the light springs. He ended up using a light and a medium I believe. As far as the PCV lying loose on the manifold, that is entirely WRONG. Who ever come up with that idea should be BANNED from being allowed to work on cars. That's nothing but a vacuum leak. Take it off NOW or put the PCV in place of the draft tube and connect it to the back of the rear carb. Now the timing. At 10 degrees that is too low. I run my wagon at 14 to 16 initial. 34 to 36 total all in by 3000 RPM. I don't run a vacuum advance. I also have 4.11's in my car. 409's weren't meant to be mileage kings. A 3.08 gear is too high. A nice 3.55 or 3.70 would be much nicer and a easier to tune combination.
Well those are my thoughts on this issue. where you go from here is up to you. If you still can't get this car to run right. I would suggest to trailer the car to Columbus, Ohio when the 409 guys that know what they are doing with 409's wii be there for the NSCA season final.

 

[Fathead Racing]

I don't buy what your carb specialist says about the carb needing the air. Large Front port is manifold vacuum, if this is open it would be a vacuum leak ! Remove whatever he has on there unless it is a PVC. The fact that you have the weakest springs installed in the MSD may be your detonation problem, change the springs to ones that bring in your total timing at 2800 rpm. If you are running with low numerical gears, 3.36 or lower, you will be loading the engine pretty much all the time in a heavy car. Lower numerical gears would like the total timing to come in late!

I concur with what Don says!

 

[Nuts]

Okay, so it appears we are all in agreement on one thing: "Get rid of the thingy on the front carb."

I would suggest to trailer the car to Columbus, Ohio when the 409 guys that know what they are doing with 409's will be there for the NSCA season final.

Now there's an idea, but I just returned from a trip to Miniapolis with the car on a trailer. It would be alot cheaper to fly one of you experts, who know what they are doing, to Boise, put you up in a nice motel for a couple of days, buy you some food/drink and let you fix the car.... Anyone interested ????

But seriously, I will remove the thinky tonigh and try to adjust the carbs to run without the vacuum leak and see what happens. Let you all know... Thanks

 

[BlueSwede]

Nuts, to me, your mechanical is low. Should be around 36*. Have you tried driving the car with the vacuum disconnected? Try setting mechanical to 35*, disconnect the vacuum, and drive it. See what it does. Should drive OK. Your vacuum advance is causing your problem, or the PCV is open and causing a lean condition. If the PCV valve is open all the time, it is like an intake leak. Lean mixture, and HOT. You already have an open crankcase with the draft tube. You don't need both. Block off the PCV.

These should help you. If they don't, I'm lost. Can't imagine it not helping both the running and the heat.

Good luck

The 35* instead of 36* is because you said all you can get is 91 octane. We have 93 around here. I have run 36* total timing with 11-1 compression with no trouble.

I Just have to ask your opinion on lets say 98 octane + octan boost.
In Sweden I fill my 348 up with this and it has standard pistons and around 9,5 maby 10 to 1 in compression. Whould this still be maximum 36 deg or should i go for more? I have never heard any ping at all from this baby.
Also I have a "wery wrong" rear end ratio 2,56 (this will be changed during winter to about 3.50).
I can go to about 65mph in first gear (M21 with a long first gear and then about 500rpm drop per gear ).
The car is light it is about 2700pounds (it´s a hotrod).
Milage is good though, about 18mpg on the road and it still moves better than most "standard vehicles".

 

[Ronnie Russell]

Swede, 65 mph in first gear?? Now thats what I call an automobile!!!! In my opinion , you are wasteing money on the 98 octane and certainly wasteing money on octane booster. That car should purr like a kitten on 92 or 93 octane . I wished you would bring that car over here and make a few passes at the Bonneville salt flats. Top speed should be good. Good luck to ya...

 

[mac1]

I Just have to ask your opinion on lets say 98 octane

I read somewhere that octane in Europe is graded differently then here. 98 octane there would be around 92 octane here??? Could be wrong on this, maybe someone else could verify this. Mac

 

[Nuts]

Okay That WORKED !!!!

Everyone - Thanks that worked !!!!!

I took the what ever it was THINKY off the front carb. I set the initial advance at 14* @ 700 rpm idle. That left me with a total of 36* advance @ 2500 rpm. I left the vacuum advance disconected and plugged the holes. Took her for a drive and climbed a couple of long hills with NO pinging or detonation. The temp held okay but it's a cool 65 degrees here today. I do get some black smoke when the throttle is pumped, so I'm back to running a little rich...

When I got home I adjusted the initial to 18* and left everything else alone. That gives me a total advance @ 2500 rpms of 38*. I'll have to take her for another drive tomorrow and check to see if she pings. There was no problem starting even with the temp up above 190 degrees so that's good news.

Now the questions I have are: Why did I pay $350 for a vacuum advance distributor ??? The other is, I'd still like to have a little more advance at idle to help contol the temps when it's warm. How to I accomplish this without getting back into a too much too soon situation ??? Well, I guess I answered the first question....

 

[SS425HP]

Good news

Nuts, when you get everything set up and running right, then we can go back to the vacuum advance. It will only help fuel mileage, though. It isn't a performance enhancing device. Is the vacuum advance on your distributor adjustable? If so, there should be an Allen wrench inside the tube that sticks out for the line from the carb. If there isn't an Allen screw inside the vacuum advance, it isn't adjustable, and might need to be left unhooked, or replaced with an adjustable one. We'll get to that when you are satisfied with the way it runs without the vacuum advance.

 

[SS425HP]

Idle temps

"I'd still like to have a little more advance at idle to help contol the temps when it's warm."

Just adjust the idle speed on the linkage. Not sure the advance will do anything to idle temps anyway. Never noticed it doing that in my car. I've got a bigger cam, I would assume, but my idle is around 1200 RPM. It will idle slower, but I like to keep it up higher. I think it is easier on the cam, for one thing.

 

[dq409]

Everyone - Thanks that worked !!!!!

I took the what ever it was THINKY off the front carb. I do get some black smoke when the throttle is pumped, so I'm back to running a little rich...

Now that the THINKY is gone so is your HUGE vacuum leak thus you are now running rich due to less air. You will need to rejet the carbs BUT only do that AFTER you finish fixing the timing problems.
Sounds like you are on the right track now,,,dq

 

[models916]

Msd

MSD DISTRIBUTORS come with a bushing to change the distributor total advance. You would bush the advance to reduce the total and then advance the initial the same amount to get a higher initial at idle and the same total advance. MSD instruction sheet spells it all out pretty clear. Timing for a performance engine should always be set at total with a setback light or a timing tape. Then adjust the springs and bushing to get the curve and initial you want at idle.

 

[Nuts]

Update !!!!

Okay, so we took the car to a local show-n-shine this weekend. Everything seems to be good although I didn't climb any hills, so no pinging. I have the initial advance set at 18* BTDC. She rans cool (180) even in traffic, but it was only 65-70 degrees at the time. Took quite awhile to get up to that, even though we were stopped at every light along the way.

Anyway BIG THANKS to all for your help and guidance.

Now if I could just figure out if the clicking noise I hear is just the roller rockers, doing their thing, or a bigger problem ??? I hate to have a car that I don't need to worry about something on !!!!!

 

[models916]

Guide Plates?

Roller Rockers Click As They Move Side To Side Unless You Have Guide Plates. Might Even Hear The Push Rods Banging On The Lower Guides In The Heads. Kind Of A Hollow Sound. If You Have Hardened Pushrods, Nothing To Worry About. Otherwise.....

 

[Nuts]

More Info Please

Models,

For some reason I thought the roller rockers with hydraulic lifters would be quieter than the stock ?? If they are going to make all this noise, maybe I'll but in some stock ones. I'm using Scorpion rockers 1.75 I believe, with screw in studs. Would I be able to replace with stock lifters ? If so were would I look to get a set ?

 

[models916]

you're loosing it

Plan on losing about 20 horsepower when you go back to the gall ball rockers. Oil temp will also increase. Just turn up the radio or install guide plates.

 

[dq409]

It just might be because I`m using the Moon style valve covers that my roller rockers (Scorpion`s) don`t sound that noise.

Nuts,, do your rollers have the Scorpion etched on them ?
If not ,,, one of the vender's out there were selling Argus rollers as Scorpions and billing and invoicing them that way. ,,dq

 

[MRHP]

Don't fret about the noise. I have Scorpion roller rockers and moon covers and also have a noise that is more than " normal " valve train noise. Many people hear this noise. As one person said on this board before, they have their own acustical signature. I don't recall who said the phrase, but it is appropriate. Brian

 

[models916]

You're not alone!

This noise is not unique to any brand or engine.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=roller+rocker+noise&fr=yfp-t-500&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8

 

[Nuts]

Nuts,, do your rollers have the Scorpion etched on them ?
,,dq

dq409, Yes the rockers have the Scorpion on them.....

Models, Thanks that link was helpful.... Just need to have something to worry about I guess but sometimes it sounds like the motor is coming apart... I just thought with the Hydrolic lifters it would be quieter.

Still, if any of you are passing through Boise, stop by and we'll take her out for a run and see what you think !!!! bang