Why did they kill the Z-11?

[jim_ss409]

I've got an old article around here somewhere that talks about the then soon to be released Z-11 style head. They made it sound as if these heads would replace 690's as the regular high performance head, but as we all know that never happened. I'm sure there would have been extra costs involved but you can't help but wonder if internal politics weren't involved.

 

[MK IISS]

Jim: I too, back in 1962, thought the "Z11 head/intakes" were destined to become standard on regular production hi-perf 409s. Some of the information though, came from automotive journalists who may have been basing their opinions on assumptions and not facts and/or information from Chevrolet. Don't forget....some "automotive journalists" are still claiming all 1961 Impala Super Sports were dealer built.

 

[dq409]

Why did they kill the Z-11 ??

Because GM has always been stupid !!!! Mystery motor? Same reason,,,,

They were stupid then and are even supider now !!!!!

 

[Ronnie Russell]

dq, can't argue with you when you are right!!!!

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

January 24, 1963

On January 24, 1963 GM lowered the boom on its various Divisions (Pontiac, Chevrolet, etal) when it ordered a corporate ban on racing activities. This has been covered in various sources (perhaps not the real story in some cases, rather journalistic interpretation?) and might be the reason why Z-11 parts were so limited?

Many place at least some of the blame on the NHRA. Others cite Federal regulations within the Justice department. At that time (from 1960 and into the 1963 race season), the “premiere part of the show at every NHRA drag racing event was the stock car classes. As competition heated up, many manufacturers turned to lightweight components and building “special” cars. In another thread, several of us were discussing the new book out on “Lightweights” of that era (with mixed reviews J). Pontiac was a big player in that era, with their so called “Super Duty” line of cars, as was Chevrolet with the Z-11 and an emphasis on special built lightweight performance cars. Chrysler messed with altered wheelbase cars and Ford offered intermediate-sized cars (Fairlanes?) with a full fiberglass package” (excerpted from Glory Days by Jim Wangers).

Here’s a direct quote from Wangers, a racer and Pontiac insider (and a marketing genius!), regarding the current state of automobile manufacturing as seen through the eyes of the federal government:

“The motivation for this internal ban was pressure on General Motors from the Federal government. This wasn’t due to safety concerns or emission problems – that would come later in the decade. The heat was from the Justice Department, who had determined that GM was getting too large a share of the U.S. car market (Imagine that!). At the time GM was close to capturing 55 percent market share, and was dangerously close to getting 60 percent… Sixty percent was the magic number that would trigger an anti-trust suit to eliminate any possibility of a General Motors monopoly.”

“The Justice department made some veiled threats to the press that the government was considering a breakup of GM by spinning off the Chevrolet Division – at that point Chevrolet alone owned close to 30 percent of the market.”

So it is possible that Federal regulations were at the forefront of many corporate decisions, and GM was fighting on several fronts. The performance front was considered by marketing to be an integral part of selling new cars, but could be sacrificed for the “greater good” of the company if push came to shove. And just look how good that turned out…

Cheers!
TomK

 

[MK IISS]

Tom: All you said is very true. The only thing I can add is I think Chevrolet gave up on the W engine...that is further research and development, after they became committed to a new engine design.

 

[dq409]

Great answers guys !! But as I said and will say again,,, A stupid reason buy GM to kill several GREAT engines!!

The 409, Z-11 and the Mystery motors (engines) were the best muscle engines at the time and maybe ever to come out of Detroit !!

If what Tom said is true a smarter GM would have split off say Pontiac from the GM house and kept these great engines in production, kept the market share growing as two companies and maybe even been a better company all around.

Shoot,,, it even may have been smarter to spin off Cadillac !!! OK,, I see that wouldn`t work due to Cadallic WAS and still IS the Flagship for GM ,, but what about a Buick-Pontiac division/company? Or Buick-Olds ? Or,,,,,,,

Seems there are/were many options that would have worked better then giving up on what made GM the best car builder of the time.

Stupid is what stupid does,,,,,dq

 

[wagon409]

I would have to agree with MK IISS in that GM most likely moved on to another design after seeing there were some limitations to the W head design. Although a great engine, the combustion chambers in the block did limit the future of the engine. I agree that the 409 is a great peice but it is very hard to argue against their move to the porcupine style heads that eventually led to the L-88 engine.

I think the quote supplied by Tom was fastinating. I will have to pass that one on to others.

 

[DaveFoster]

A carguy can learn more about 409's in one hour reading this website than a whole lifetime asking local mechanics or speedshop owners. Thanx again for all this info and history.

 

[Tom Kochtanek]

Choices

I suspect GM was getting pressured on several fronts (insurance companies, safety regulations, etc.) and felt compelled to give in something.

DQ suggests: "If what Tom said is true a smarter GM would have split off say Pontiac from the GM house and kept these great engines in production, kept the market share growing as two companies and maybe even been a better company all around." Not part of that corporate culture, but I did read Bunkie Knudsen's biography and it doesn't seem like the guys on the 14th floor (or whatever level the top GM brass toiled at) were the kind of fellas that give in so easily, and splitting up GM would be a big deal to them. Think about it, giving up a flagship is irreversible, dropping a racing program is something you can sign an order and get back on board within weeks. I'd do the latter, much more flexible, and you remain in control of your empire. Probably a good stock market move on their part. Remember only a few top GM guys were "car guys" with a performance orientation. Many were "bean counters" and "stock market worriers".

That the L-88 and the ZL-1 later surfaced that same decade is actually a remarkable feat in and of itself. And the LS6 in the early 70s and the ZR-1 from the late 1980s, same deal. Really brutish power with an eye on performance. We all wish there were more (and that we could afford them!).

Best,
TomK

 

[Ronnie Russell]

It would be interesting to know if any of the original W-head design engineers have seen any of the 409 stroker race cars run in the last couple of years. Wonder if they would be impressed with what their design can do with modern technology. No, the W-head will never rival the modern big block, but it sure came closer than anyone ever imagined.

 

[RCE1962]

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z11216/default.aspx


http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z9077/Chevrolet/default.aspx


RCE1962

 

[MK IISS]

Mk II 396 1964 chevelle

Tom: You said: " "Dropping a racing program is something you can sign an order and get back on board within a few weeks." That is exactly what happened. In the fall of 1963 Chevrolet R&D along with Smokey Yunick built a 1964 Chevelle with a short stroke 396 version of the Mk II. (4.312 X 3.390 ?)

"So, Knudson took me down to R&D and showed me this Chevelle, and asked me what I thought.....We run that car. Andretti was gonna drive it in the Daytona 500......he run it into the *** end of a parked car out there and bent it up so bad we couldn't fix it, so we didn't enter it. That was the '64 Chevelle. Then there was the one we raced in '67."
Smokey Yunick

"The 396 generation came about as an accident. In 1963 NASCAR said they were going to quit running 427s and back up to 396. We started looking at the Mk II as a 396 instead of a 427. The 396 had the same bore as the as the 427 but with a shorter stroke. The Mk II 396 was a humdinger of an engine. We tested that engine in the fall of 1963. We had Smokey do a Chevelle, the first Chevelle bodied stock car. We tested it it down in Fort Stockton Texas."
Bill Howell
Chevrolet Test Engineer

 

[oil4kids]

At the time GM was close to capturing 55 percent market share, and was dangerously close to getting 60 percent… Sixty percent was the magic number that would trigger an anti-trust suit to eliminate any possibility of a General Motors monopoly.”

“The Justice department made some veiled threats to the press that the government was considering a breakup of GM by spinning off the Chevrolet Division – at that point Chevrolet alone owned close to 30 percent of the market.”

So it is possible that Federal regulations were at the forefront of many corporate decisions, and GM was fighting on several fronts. The performance front was considered by marketing to be an integral part of selling new cars, but could be sacrificed for the “greater good” of the company if push came to shove. And just look how good that turned out…

Cheers!
TomK

So now I guess its ok for the European guys like Mercedes or BMW to make any horsepower car and market it as the AMG Hammer or M5 so they could kick the crap out of American car sales.

 

[dq409]

Hummm, I guess from what I heard, or should I say have read , was that the Mystery motor was the best engine chevy ever built as far as power and design. Yes, the later 396 and 427`s were developed from that engine but somewhere I read that the Mystery Motor had some great designs that never were used on/in the later engines.

I understand why the "W" went away as mentioned by Tom K and it would be great to hear what the designers think of the stroked versions but I REALLY would like to see and hear what those lucky enough to use and own a Mystery Motor really think about them.

As far as the newest muscle engines go I think they are awesome !!!
But besides the Corvette what is there in the GNM line-up that is anything you can call a muscle car ????

And that is still why I believe that GM isn`t the sharpest tool in the shed,,,,

 

[jim_ss409]

Wow, GM had 55% of the car sales! I wonder what percentage they have today. The new Camaro seems like a good idea. But they should have built it two years ago, not in 2009. http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/naias_2006/0601_chevrolet_camaro_concept/photo_09.html
I still don't get why they stayed with the 690-583 heads when they had better Z-11 style heads available. Even though they had a new engine in the works they could have had a better 409 engine for the last two years of production.
Of course the Big Block's a great engine but how much better is it than a Z-11? All the strength improvements like 4 bolt mains and stronger rods could have also been applied to the W engine. The L-88's and the 450hp LS6 454's were great engines, but I can't help but wonder how much power a 454ci W engine with Z11 heads would have made? Especially with a few more years of development. Heck, they might have even made an intake manifold that didn't have 90deg. turns in it. There's no doubt that over all the Big Block was a better engine, just like the new LS series is better than the old small block, but I still think the W engine, especially in Z11 form was also a really great engine.

 

[oil4kids]

Lamar W told me last year that even Warren Johnson (WJ) had come over to his shop to look at his alum Z11 heads to see why they were making so much horsepower-

 

[dq409]

Lamar W told me last year that even Warren Johnson (WJ) had come over to his shop to look at his alum Z11 heads to see why they were making so much horsepower-

Gawl dang it !! I hate it when he calls them HIS heads !!!!:takethat