Hey Guys,
After an exhausting search for my father's original 1962 SS 409 Chevy that he bought brand new in 1962, I have come up empty handed. BTW his original was a Black on Black 409 2x4, 4 speed Imapala SS hardtop car purchased new in Brooklyn New York (in anybody has any info please e-mail me at dean_morarity@yahoo.com I have a vin number for reference). Anyway back to the story:
While trolling the internet classifieds I come up with a recently posted ad for a black on black 1962 409 2x4 4spd car with an address less than a Mile from my work. SO I go take a look last night and here are my observations:
The car is a clone, but that is ok because the ad said clone.
Engine:
It has a W-motor in it but I am unable to confirm if it is a 348 or a 409. The front block numbers (in front of the head) were ground off (on purpose) and I could not get to the back numbers with the car on a lift. It has the correct 2x4 carter afb carbs on it. Ignition is a msd with some monster coil, the distributor looked new. The car has jardine headers on it. Looks like it has the correct fan shroud. The fuel lines are not stock but I didn't expect them to be. My overall impression of the engine bay is that someone spent a lot of time and money to make this look like a period correct 409 hotrod. The car has a healty cam in it, Lopes nice at idle. Runs good, there is a new choke on the rear carb and the accelerator pump seemed a little weak in the rear carb. Personally I thought the timing needed to be checked and a valve adjustment performed but otherwise the motor was strong and heathly with no strange noises.
The Body and frame:
This body is super clean. I had it up on the lift and as near as I can tell by looking at the backside of all the panels is that the floor, trunk floor, front fenders, sills, doors, and rioght side quarter had never been replaced or mashed. The left side had a small patch panle welded in.I could not spot it from the outside but could see the butt weld from the back side of the panel just below the trunk floor. There were still two dime sized rot holes in the left trunk extention but they were treated with por15 and covered sufficiently that I didn't have to worry about it roting out more. The body was originally a non SS white and red 327 four speed car with a red interior according to the trim tag, so at least it is a stick shift body. There was a lot of the factory undercoating still on the car, the x frame had no visible repairs, the body bushings were new but if the car was off the frame it wasn't off for very long. There is no trace of the original paint anywhere I could find, which leads me to believe that the car was completely disassembled and painted while apart. The paint is laquer, the good old school hand rubbed laquer, in black. There is not one scratch on this car anywhere to be found, no chips, not one dent. There are no waves in the body, no bad body work. All the doors, hood and trunk close extremely nice and all the gaps are almost dead even from start to finish. I think it needs a left side hood hinge adjustment as it sits a little higher on that side but otherwise it is dead on. I used to wrok for a shop that did corvettes for bloomington and carlisle, and the body on this impala is one of the nicest steel cars I have ever seen. It has all the correct impala SS trim pieces, including all of the engine turned pieces, dent and scratch free. Everything on this car is tight, nothing rattles or squeaks.
Interior: The interior is a real SS interior in black vynil. It has the buckets and a console. The headliner, and seats look worn enough for me to say they are original covers, not repros, but there are no holes in them anywhere, no rips, they are soft and supple. The door panels are obviously new, the console has been refinished, but the dash does not look restoered. It is missing the SS between the rear seats but otherwise lookes like a real ss interior. My impression is that someone took a black interior out of a real SS and put it in this car.
Misc: Here is what bothered me most about the car:
1) The seller is not an enthuasist. He was a really nice guy in his mid 30's, and owns a shop that specalizes in late model porches, Mercedes, BMW. He didn't seem to know a lot about these old chevy's, and he didn't seem to care too much, to him it was just a great looking fun old car that turned a lot of heads, probably on par with a new SL mercedes. He bought the car "finished" and so he didn't know a lot about it (didn't know the rear end ratio, whether the tranny was a t-10 or a muncie). The seller has nothing on this car. He bought it from a dealer in penn. There is no paperwork or history on the car at all. He does not know who built it, nor does he know some of the equipment the car has.
2) it was hard to start cold, something told me it was just advanced too much - the owner owned up to this when I mentioned it to him, but it bothers me that he has been mucking around with it and the carbs (I used to drive a 67 GTO daily I know these cars need regular maintenance but he was expirmenting but add that in with his lack of expirence and it becomes worrisome).
3) there was an original tach in the car, but it was mounted in the wrong place - jutting off the dash to the right of the steering wheel not on the column like it should be. It wasn't on the column because the car had an automatic column (with the lever removed). The owner told me that he bought the car that way. Having seen the pedal assembly and the 4sp hole in the floor, the car was either a 4 spd car originally or someone put way too much time in putting a factory style hump and hole in the floor without any evidence of welding or patching - given the patch panel in the rear this is unlikely.
4) The car has big a littles on new cragar rims. It also has blue dot taillights, chrome valve covers, and those little 2" chome air cleaners. It seriously looks like how a kid would build a 409 in 1962 out of a new car. I get the feeling that the car has been powershifted a few times. Yet I couldn't find any rubber in the rear wheel wells. Still you can tell the car was built for fun and not the show ground. IT bothers me it is a clone.
My overall impression is that someone spent a fortune on making this car look and feel like a real SS 409, but didn't hide the fact that the car is a clone. There are a few things bothering me about it but not enough.
The owner said he paid $20,000 to a dealer three years ago for the car and he would like to get that back. His initial price to me was $25K but I balked right away at that because the car is a clone.
My impression is that as a Clone the car is probably only worth $15K at most. I see from some of the ads out there that for about $20K I could probably get a real 409 car in driver condition. My father really wants a real 409 car but this car is here, in our neighborhood, the right color combination, and is a drive away tomorrow deal.
So what do you guys think about the price?
Edit: Anybody in the NY area who is really knowledgable about these cars wanna take a look at it with me in case I missed anything.
After an exhausting search for my father's original 1962 SS 409 Chevy that he bought brand new in 1962, I have come up empty handed. BTW his original was a Black on Black 409 2x4, 4 speed Imapala SS hardtop car purchased new in Brooklyn New York (in anybody has any info please e-mail me at dean_morarity@yahoo.com I have a vin number for reference). Anyway back to the story:
While trolling the internet classifieds I come up with a recently posted ad for a black on black 1962 409 2x4 4spd car with an address less than a Mile from my work. SO I go take a look last night and here are my observations:
The car is a clone, but that is ok because the ad said clone.
Engine:
It has a W-motor in it but I am unable to confirm if it is a 348 or a 409. The front block numbers (in front of the head) were ground off (on purpose) and I could not get to the back numbers with the car on a lift. It has the correct 2x4 carter afb carbs on it. Ignition is a msd with some monster coil, the distributor looked new. The car has jardine headers on it. Looks like it has the correct fan shroud. The fuel lines are not stock but I didn't expect them to be. My overall impression of the engine bay is that someone spent a lot of time and money to make this look like a period correct 409 hotrod. The car has a healty cam in it, Lopes nice at idle. Runs good, there is a new choke on the rear carb and the accelerator pump seemed a little weak in the rear carb. Personally I thought the timing needed to be checked and a valve adjustment performed but otherwise the motor was strong and heathly with no strange noises.
The Body and frame:
This body is super clean. I had it up on the lift and as near as I can tell by looking at the backside of all the panels is that the floor, trunk floor, front fenders, sills, doors, and rioght side quarter had never been replaced or mashed. The left side had a small patch panle welded in.I could not spot it from the outside but could see the butt weld from the back side of the panel just below the trunk floor. There were still two dime sized rot holes in the left trunk extention but they were treated with por15 and covered sufficiently that I didn't have to worry about it roting out more. The body was originally a non SS white and red 327 four speed car with a red interior according to the trim tag, so at least it is a stick shift body. There was a lot of the factory undercoating still on the car, the x frame had no visible repairs, the body bushings were new but if the car was off the frame it wasn't off for very long. There is no trace of the original paint anywhere I could find, which leads me to believe that the car was completely disassembled and painted while apart. The paint is laquer, the good old school hand rubbed laquer, in black. There is not one scratch on this car anywhere to be found, no chips, not one dent. There are no waves in the body, no bad body work. All the doors, hood and trunk close extremely nice and all the gaps are almost dead even from start to finish. I think it needs a left side hood hinge adjustment as it sits a little higher on that side but otherwise it is dead on. I used to wrok for a shop that did corvettes for bloomington and carlisle, and the body on this impala is one of the nicest steel cars I have ever seen. It has all the correct impala SS trim pieces, including all of the engine turned pieces, dent and scratch free. Everything on this car is tight, nothing rattles or squeaks.
Interior: The interior is a real SS interior in black vynil. It has the buckets and a console. The headliner, and seats look worn enough for me to say they are original covers, not repros, but there are no holes in them anywhere, no rips, they are soft and supple. The door panels are obviously new, the console has been refinished, but the dash does not look restoered. It is missing the SS between the rear seats but otherwise lookes like a real ss interior. My impression is that someone took a black interior out of a real SS and put it in this car.
Misc: Here is what bothered me most about the car:
1) The seller is not an enthuasist. He was a really nice guy in his mid 30's, and owns a shop that specalizes in late model porches, Mercedes, BMW. He didn't seem to know a lot about these old chevy's, and he didn't seem to care too much, to him it was just a great looking fun old car that turned a lot of heads, probably on par with a new SL mercedes. He bought the car "finished" and so he didn't know a lot about it (didn't know the rear end ratio, whether the tranny was a t-10 or a muncie). The seller has nothing on this car. He bought it from a dealer in penn. There is no paperwork or history on the car at all. He does not know who built it, nor does he know some of the equipment the car has.
2) it was hard to start cold, something told me it was just advanced too much - the owner owned up to this when I mentioned it to him, but it bothers me that he has been mucking around with it and the carbs (I used to drive a 67 GTO daily I know these cars need regular maintenance but he was expirmenting but add that in with his lack of expirence and it becomes worrisome).
3) there was an original tach in the car, but it was mounted in the wrong place - jutting off the dash to the right of the steering wheel not on the column like it should be. It wasn't on the column because the car had an automatic column (with the lever removed). The owner told me that he bought the car that way. Having seen the pedal assembly and the 4sp hole in the floor, the car was either a 4 spd car originally or someone put way too much time in putting a factory style hump and hole in the floor without any evidence of welding or patching - given the patch panel in the rear this is unlikely.
4) The car has big a littles on new cragar rims. It also has blue dot taillights, chrome valve covers, and those little 2" chome air cleaners. It seriously looks like how a kid would build a 409 in 1962 out of a new car. I get the feeling that the car has been powershifted a few times. Yet I couldn't find any rubber in the rear wheel wells. Still you can tell the car was built for fun and not the show ground. IT bothers me it is a clone.
My overall impression is that someone spent a fortune on making this car look and feel like a real SS 409, but didn't hide the fact that the car is a clone. There are a few things bothering me about it but not enough.
The owner said he paid $20,000 to a dealer three years ago for the car and he would like to get that back. His initial price to me was $25K but I balked right away at that because the car is a clone.
My impression is that as a Clone the car is probably only worth $15K at most. I see from some of the ads out there that for about $20K I could probably get a real 409 car in driver condition. My father really wants a real 409 car but this car is here, in our neighborhood, the right color combination, and is a drive away tomorrow deal.
So what do you guys think about the price?
Edit: Anybody in the NY area who is really knowledgable about these cars wanna take a look at it with me in case I missed anything.
I think that if it looks like a good car it's probably priced about right
but you've got to check the numbers,
if the high performance 409 turns out to be a 348 from a truck... then it's worth a LOT less.
: And the number is climbing every day.......