Bayer Z-11 head HELP !!!

409Kid

409Kid

Well Known Member
I just got back from speaking with Nathan at Horsepower by Gerolamy.

The better of the two heads has two cracks on one cylinder face. That can can be addressed fairly easily by pinning and a light skim. Also one exhaust seat had been cut deep and will require a hardened seat to bring the valve back where it belongs.

Now the bad news …

The bad head that took a catastrophic hit and was repaired back in the day by Excels Weld is worse than anticipated. Beyond the -.050 shaving and known brazing repairs for cracks topside and in two exhaust ports other breaks were found. Two bolt hole bosses outside the valve cover area had been previously broken off at the exhaust ports and were repaired. In addition, seven of the valve seats had been replaced and porosity is present around one of the seats. All the bolt holes have been knackered from multiple head removals and will necessitate they be machined to accept ARP T washers. Then there is the outrageous -.050 surface job that had been done to repair shrapnel damage. Further cracks are present topside along the braze repair. Other areas on this head have additional issues. Another words, this head is well beyond life support and if not for its rarity would have been thrown on a scrap heap decades ago.

I brought the heads home today. A set of head gaskets will arrive tomorrow as the basis for a pattern to construct a pressure plate so the heads can be pressure checked for additional damage. I’ll be busy over the weekend fabricating.

If anyone in the Z-11 community has a spare head or pair of heads or know someone else that might be willing to reach out and help with my dilemma I would be greatly appreciated to hear from you/them.

Additionally, if you know of an outfit that is infinitely qualified to do cast iron welding repairs maybe I can reach out and discuss possibilities in repairing this head. We have no cast iron welding shops any longer in our region that I’m aware of. Seems to be a dying industry. I don’t know if this is even feasible to have the entire face welded and then re surfaced to original specs. I’m just trying to think outside the box here and throwing spitballs.

Disheartened

Bill

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wristpin

wristpin

Well Known Member
This is coming completely from left field but here goes.
Would it be feasible financially to have that severely damaged head taken to a foundry where the experts could analyze it and determine if it could be cut up and be used as the basis for completely new Z-11 head sand castings? It wouldn't be cheap but could there be 10-25 people who would be willing to make the initial investment to have themselves NEW Z-11 heads?
 
409Kid

409Kid

Well Known Member
Boxerdog
There is a Lock N Stitch shop In Turlock Ca. About 70 miles south of my location. I’ll contact them and may take the head down to them and let them evaluate whether or not they can do anything.

Wristpin
I don’t think you’re out in left field at all. But like you said it would be extremely expensive and I’m not one with bottomless pockets. I’ve done prototype to end product work for other projects I’ve been involved with that had a limited niche market. I’ve made the investments to further my projects and offered the products to the community. Everybody wants one until the time comes to pay the piper. They simply don’t want to help pay for the engineering, tooling, manufacturing etc. they don’t understand that the costs are extremely high when it comes to a very limited run on a particular part.

Sacrificing a head, even a junk one, to the cause would be a hard pill to swallow. I would entertain that thought but it would take an invested financial commitment from others to make that a reality. I’m certainly not familiar with foundries that could do this kind of work.

Regarding patterns, It seems to me that before Lamar’s passing, he had developed an aluminum Z-11 head that was otherwise stock spec’d. Maybe I’m wrong but I swore they were available at one time along with valley trays and manifolds. Where did those patterns go? How many sets were made?

Along the same lines ... I’m looking for an original aluminum water pump to no avail. Does an accurate reproduction exist for them.

I realize I’m an outsider to the Z-11 community and I’m trying to slip my foot in the front door. I can say I’m committed to making this visually correct tribute project a reality. I don’t have a clue who current owners of cars are or those who have managed to gather spares over the years. Heck I don’t even know who I’m chatting with on the forums. I certainly understand those who have these parts aren’t easily motivated to offer their spares for sale. I get it. It’s taken me nearly 50 years to obtain what I have acquired and I’m just as protective. I’m trying to get these parts back into circulation for people to see. They have collected dust in a barn long enough…

Bill
 
MRHP

MRHP

 
Supporting Member 1
Sorry to hear of your troubles. This is why I stepped back from a z11 build. Not only were the parts used and abused over the years, the heads are quite problematic with porosity. Add 60 years of rust, and you are behind the 8 ball for sure. Good luck!
 
boxerdog

boxerdog

Well Known Member
Supporting Member 5
409Kid said:
Boxerdog
There is a Lock N Stitch shop In Turlock Ca. About 70 miles south of my location. I’ll contact them and may take the head down to them and let them evaluate whether or not they can do anything.

Wristpin
I don’t think you’re out in left field at all. But like you said it would be extremely expensive and I’m not one with bottomless pockets. I’ve done prototype to end product work for other projects I’ve been involved with that had a limited niche market. I’ve made the investments to further my projects and offered the products to the community. Everybody wants one until the time comes to pay the piper. They simply don’t want to help pay for the engineering, tooling, manufacturing etc. they don’t understand that the costs are extremely high when it comes to a very limited run on a particular part.

Sacrificing a head, even a junk one, to the cause would be a hard pill to swallow. I would entertain that thought but it would take an invested financial commitment from others to make that a reality. I’m certainly not familiar with foundries that could do this kind of work.

Regarding patterns, It seems to me that before Lamar’s passing, he had developed an aluminum Z-11 head that was otherwise stock spec’d. Maybe I’m wrong but I swore they were available at one time along with valley trays and manifolds. Where did those patterns go? How many sets were made?

Along the same lines ... I’m looking for an original aluminum water pump to no avail. Does an accurate reproduction exist for them.

I realize I’m an outsider to the Z-11 community and I’m trying to slip my foot in the front door. I can say I’m committed to making this visually correct tribute project a reality. I don’t have a clue who current owners of cars are or those who have managed to gather spares over the years. Heck I don’t even know who I’m chatting with on the forums. I certainly understand those who have these parts aren’t easily motivated to offer their spares for sale. I get it. It’s taken me nearly 50 years to obtain what I have acquired and I’m just as protective. I’m trying to get these parts back into circulation for people to see. They have collected dust in a barn long enough…

Bill
Click to expand...
Bill, I'm in Modesto and I have used that shop a few times, I worked in Turlock for many years. The first time I showed up they gave me a tour of the facility and I became aware of their many talents. One of their projects involved repairs to the dome on the US Capitol building, so scale of the project is not an issue. The previous attempts at repair may cause most of the problems, but I'd recommend taking a look at their website, it's pretty impressive.
 
409Kid

409Kid

Well Known Member
Just made a 5 hr trip to Lock N Stitch. They said the head can’t be repaired. It would warp in the furnace with the amount of welding needed to be done and the machining would take it all back off just to make it straight. Also the brazing that had been done previously was a concern. It will likely now end up sitting on my mantle as a conversation piece as a search for a replacement
 
409Kid

409Kid

Well Known Member
As soon as I can get a plate fabricated to pressure test both heads they will be taken back to Gerolamy’s. I told Nathen what LNS said and that we have to make do with what we have to work with. Hopefully no more surprises will be found during the pressure tests.

It seems I saw a process whereby coatings can be injected under pressure to seal up casting cracks. Not sure if it was a ceramic concoction or (?). But if more issues arise I’ll be looking in that direction as well.

Given the condition of the heads I
May have to rethink how I move forward with my cam selection. Putting the .730 lift Isky roller in it may cause in needed stressors to an already compromised situation. The mystery cam is arriving today from Delta Cams and I will post the results from the cam card.

See the Bayer thread regarding the pics and initial speculations regarding this particular cam. Results will be posted there as well.
 
F

fourzeronine

Well Known Member
409Kid said:
Regarding patterns, It seems to me that before Lamar’s passing, he had developed an aluminum Z-11 head that was otherwise stock spec’d. Maybe I’m wrong but I swore they were available at one time along with valley trays and manifolds. Where did those patterns go? How many sets were made?
Click to expand...
Yes, LWA had the aluminum "CRW" Z11 heads that were done as a partnership with Rich Rojeski. They were available with and without water jackets. They also did replicas of the valley cover.

Call LWA and find out the status. They may have a pair left on a shelf. I think Rob Walden is running a pair on the engine in his '33 Willys.
 
63 dream'n

63 dream'n

Well Seasoned Member
Supporting Member 4
You weren’t planning on doing an original car. The aluminum would be more reliable paint’em orange….. who is gonna know, I’m not saying you gotta sell it off or pass it off as in original……. but you can go out and have fun racing your Z11
 
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